Jump for Joy

[holmes4]

A7R3, Sony 24-105G Click through for full size.

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Valletta 

Edited June 20, 2018 by holmes4

[Guest Jaf-Photo]

Again, crop closer. Half of the image area is doing nothing. When you crop closer you bring out the emotional impact of the connection between the mother and the child. In a wide shot, it just hard to read and looks kinda weird.

[slackercruster]

Yes, good advice.

Too much unneeded stuff takes away from the main subject. Nothing could be easier than to crop with software to test out various versions.

[holmes4]

Is this better? If I crop even closer, I cut off too much of the fountain jets and it looks weird.

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Edited June 24, 2018 by holmes4

[Guest Jaf-Photo]

The water jets are non-essential. It better to focus on positioning the main subjects comfortably within the frame. Start with the rule of thirds and tweak it a bit to achieve balance. You'll find you need to crop it up towards the right compared to the second version.

I'm only saying because the photo depicts a very nice moment captured at the right time. You just need to focus the image on it. Think of as a photo of people, not of a town square.

Edited June 24, 2018 by Jaf-Photo

[holmes4]

I can't completely crop out the water jets, as one of them is, in part, in line with the kid. Possibly I could get rid of it in Photoshop - I will try that. Thanks for the advice.

[holmes4]

Ok, how's this?

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[Guest Jaf-Photo]

Just as a demonstration I marked a box roundabout where I would crop it -- no disrespect intended.

There are a couple of principles involved. First, the subjects need some space around them to rest comfortably in the picture. Second, you want to lead the eye into the picture. In this case it's natural to lead the eye to the mother first by making her prominent in the left half of the frame. So the eye will go up to her first -- including her shadow gives you a sense of her height above the ground. Then the eye will drop down to her child that occupies a prominent part of the bottom right quarter. In the third step, the eye goes to her feet, then up again. So, in effect you get a triangle, which is a strong compositional element. The picture will also read the other way, from right to left, which is more natural for people who write in that direction.

If you go through these thoughts, you'll start thinking about composition already when you are framing the shot. Step by step your photos will get stronger.

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Edited June 25, 2018 by Jaf-Photo

[holmes4]

I do appreciate your taking the time to offer your advice. I'm pretty good on the technical side, but have a lot to learn on the artistic side. I do try, more and more, to compose my shots well. This one, though, was shot from quite a distance with a 105mm focal length (most I had), so I am depending on the 42.2MP of the camera to give me leeway on final composition. I'm not the sort of photographer who packs multiple lenses. When I've done that in the past I spent too much time switching lenses and would rather have just one general purpose lens that will handle 95% of what I need.

Here's the latest attempt. I also brought out the shadows a bit. How does this look?

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[Guest Jaf-Photo]

Yeah, that's a photo. Looks great, welI done.

I think it's fun to discuss photos. Cameras, like all technology, tends to steal a lot of our attention.

So it's good to focus on the images and forget about the gear from time to time.

 

[holmes4]

Thanks again.  I'm going to go back over the shots I took during the trip and see if any of them could stand recropping.

Edited June 25, 2018 by holmes4

[mkg3]

Perhaps just my perspective but I find the image would benefit being more of portrait orientation than in landscape, when cropping.  

The last image, it feels head-room cramped. Plus you've lost the height of the background column that balance the image of a person jumping.  Also, I like the wet reflection on the foreground and the water spouting up too - it adds tot he scene.

Again, its probably just me and since everyone has an opinion on these things, what matters is what you like and are happy with.

Cheers!

[Guest Jaf-Photo]

If you crop it in portrait orientation you introduce new problems. First, the backs of the subjects will be uncomfortably close to the edges of the frame. They'll look cramped and you lose the sense of space around them. Second, the colums in the background will become the main feature of the image, where the eye goes first. From there, there's no natural path to follow around the photo. Third, there is really no important information in the reflection below the characters or on the wall above them. Including them would be a purely decorative impulse that would distract from the subject of the photo. In general it's not wise to crop for a radical change to the character of a photo. If you wanted a radicallt different photo, you should have shot it differently.

 

Edited June 27, 2018 by Jaf-Photo

[holmes4]

Just for reference, here is the original shot, and that shot hastily cropped portrait-orientation. I tend to agree with Jaf-Photo that this works better in landscape.

 

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[mkg3]

Like I said, its my preference and people can like/dislike the orientation of the image.  The example you've provided is not cropped enough.  I would bring in much closer so that the pole and both trash cans in the background are eliminated.  The bottom of the image would only included the wet ground and in fact, I would cut the bottom of the photo at the top half of the middle set of first spouts (like you did for the landscape crop).  The top would be cropped just above the column height.

I do not agree with the first two points Jaf makes and that's fine.  The third point to me is irrelevant as I would crop it at the same location that the landscape crop you've made.  Its a moot point.

What's important is not what Jaf or anyone says, including myself - its your expression and intent for the image.  If you are unhappy with it, then some basics and technical rules/interpretations may help you bring the image to the something that you do like - but that's where it ends.

 

 

[Guest Jaf-Photo]

Photography is a skill that can be taught. It is also a profession, even if it is being eroded by dilettantes. With that in mind, would you trust a lawyer, doctor or engineer who said that everything in their profession is about personal preference and here is how they like to do it? To me, that's how you spot the dilettante.

Edited July 1, 2018 by Jaf-Photo

[mkg3]

"It is also a profession, even if it is being eroded by dilettantes." 

It is a profession and I make no claim to be a professional photographer.  To say that its being eroded by non-professionals without knowledge is simply an arrogance.  I am a professional engineer and a designer but there are many great ideas and approaches being demonstrated by non-professional engineers/designers.

Your are right that skills can be taught but not the creativity or the style and the eye for products one creates - image or anything else for that matter.  There are so many professional photogs that are just okay with lots of rules and skills under their command - nothing special or original.

As for doctors and lawyers, there is a reason they are called "practice" as their judgement impacts the outcome significantly.  It is that judgement that we are discussing. 

[Guest Jaf-Photo]

It's a fact that the less people know about a certain activity, the more confident they are in their ability to perform the activity. The more you learn the more you understand how little you actually know.

These days, everyone thinks they are a photographer just because they can buy a good camera. Disrespect for the real professionals (you call them "nothing special") is just a symptom of the arrogance that comes from ignorance.

Everyone can buy a stethoscope, a pocket calculator or a book of legal cases. That doesn't make them doctors, engineers or lawyers though.

[sixzeiss]

I agree with mkg3, the vertical crop will be better, as it would have a little more of the wet stones, probably just above that blue wrapper ... since the subject is jumping, I think a vertical crop is making a little more sense, especially as there is a lot of visual noise in the image which can be cropped out with the vertical orientation.

 

Now JAF's suggestion was basically the rule of thirds, nothing wrong with that, but also nothing special either. You will notice, I'm using the same rule too.

 

 

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Edited July 2, 2018 by sixzeiss

[Chrissie]

31 minutes ago, sixzeiss said:

I agree with mkg3, the vertical crop will be better

Considering you are a Newbie, you do make quite some absolute statements. Which as of now lack any backing through proof of your expertise.

The difference between you, sixzeiss, and Jaf-Photo is, that Jaf-Photo is offering an advice, based on education and experience, while you seem mostly interested in maintaining the last word and igniting a controversy. The last word on this is yours - I have nothing more to contribute here.

[Guest Jaf-Photo]

Thank you, Chrissie.

The notes I wrote on my crop were indeed a small fragment of "Composition 101". The very foundation of any photo is to create a path for the eye to enter the picture and move around in it. It's not just an optional "rule", it's knowledge based on an understanding of how human vision works. There is a lot more to it, but small steps seem to be the order of the day.

Accomplished photographers will often avoid saying that a photo is "good" or "bad". They prefer to say that it "works" or "doesn't work". That is based on the understanding that a photo is supposed to fulfil a number of functions. 

The most important part of growing and developing as a photographer is to learn to self-critique your images. That doesn't mean deciding if they are "good" or "bad". It means being able to break down a photo in its constituent parts to determine which parts work and which parts don't work.

There are very few perfect photos out there. Almost every photo could have been better in some regard. Photography is a continous pursuit of the perfect photo - that may never come. In the process you will hopefully create many photos that, on balance, work.

The reason I got involved with Holmes´ photo is that it has obvious strengths in terms of content and a weakness in terms of composition. This is praise, not criticism, because even a good photographer will often see potential images from the wrong position. So the interesting question is what you can do to emphasise the strength and minimise the weakness in the resulting photo.

Edited July 2, 2018 by Jaf-Photo

[sixzeiss]

On 7/2/2018 at 9:11 PM, Chrissie said:

Considering you are a Newbie, you do make quite some absolute statements. Which as of now lack any backing through proof of your expertise.

Well, its not hard is it? 

You can look at the horizontal crop, and vertical crop, and decide for yourself. Thankfully, no need for expertise.

 

I would probably use an Instagram crop, based on Holme's image from the 25th  ... think about that for a bit and see if you don't agree.

Edited July 4, 2018 by sixzeiss

[holmes4]

I appreciate the interest in making this photo even better. I can see how different crops have different benefits. Most of my shots tend to be landscape, so that is what I lean to, but sometimes other crops are useful. I haven't done much with square (Instagram) crops - an interesting thought.