Max print sizes 24mpx ff?

[foto-fanatic]

Hi members im politely wondering if anyone knows what print size you can get away with using a7m2 what i mean is how large can you go within reason and still maintain clarity?

 

Reason i ask is im buying a large format printer that prints @24inch wide soon and im hoping the 24mpx ff sensor will cover a1 size hi quality prints without too much degradation etc.

 

If anyone has advice im all ears, thanks.

[LeButler]

It'll most likely be adequate. Depends mainly on the viewing distance, but also the amount of shot noise and the subject matter:

 

I saw many A7S (12MP) images printed at 3' x 2' recently at the World Photography Awards. At this "extremely" low resolution, Portraits looked perfect, Landscapes were not distracting, only Architecture was a little compromised.

Therefore, while the highest MP camera would seem the obvious choice for large printouts, any modern camera is usable at that size.

...

See this thread for some other opinions.

[Vvorsic]

You can still blow them up and make good prints. I made 5x4m prints out of canon 5d mark ii few zears ago and the detail was pretty good on those big ass prints.

 

[iul]

It depends of the viewing distance. As long as you hold it in hand (2 feet distance), I wouldn't go below 200 dpi for a good quality. That would correspond to a 30 x 20 inch sheet. If you hang it on the wall, the viewing distance being an average of 6 feet, 72 dpi might be sufficient, resulting in 83 x 55 inch. Placing it on a bus, 18 dpi could be ok. All measures subject to kind of motif of course.

[Snowfun]

I agree - it is all a function of viewing distance.

 

I am always surprised at how poor the perfume adverts in airport terminals look when you walk past them. A mess of blurred blotches. Standing on the other side of the floor they look gorgeous however.

[foto-fanatic]

^Haha i spot that too. I think the same thing, pixelated etc. Ok from afar of course.

 

Yeah well theres something to be said for shooting at lowest iso thats for sure, i wanted to print a1 size, this printer has max dpi of 2880x1440 if memory serves right, i can look it up, its an epson 7890. Only one that does a1 under 6k.

I hear there are programs that up res and or you can do it in ps to 600 dpi but from what little research 300-240-200 etc seems the go however im relatively fussy now and i guess like the gentleman poster above suggested you notice when its sloppy choppy fuzz.

Mainly wondered if you think i will get away with a1 size at hi quality or hi res etc from the sony?

i guess il have to choose my shots wisely.

 

@lebutler-feeling more confident already 

 

@everyone, thanks, add any more info if it behooves you im all ears, a lot to learn.

 

checking out link now

[ericwestpheling]

I have a few framed 24x36" prints from my 5D MK2 which was 21MP.

 

They really "pop" at about 4' away, the detail and texture make you want to look closer. They are fantastic up close. If I had to be extremely picky I would say that they could use 36MP or 48MP for absolute sharpness, but not a single person has ever said anything to that extent.

 

Its also very much about lens performance and technique when working at that print size and close viewing distance.

 

Photos I printed at that size were made with the Canon 70-200 F4 L or Zeiss Distagon 21mm f2.8 at an F8 or F11. These lenses used at deep stop easily delivers enough information across the whole frame, even in the extreme corners. Many lenses like my ancient Canon 16-35mm 2.8 mk1 will not make a good print that size except in the middle 30% of the image.

 

Also your post processing may need to include specific steps and testing to preserve detail when enlarging to 300DPI for your print, and sharpening for your expected viewing distance.

 

I also have found recently that adding certain amount of film grain/noise to your final enlarged file will help create the impression of sharpness even if detail in the frame is not entirely adequate. The grain/noise will reproduce sharply in the print, which will keep the viewer from feeling that the print is soft.

 

Depending on your motif this may not be whats important, but its all something to keep in mind if you are concerned with a perception of sharpness and technical image quality.

[iul]

As A1 is 594 × 841 mm, with 200dpi you are fine for a 4000 x 6000 image.

 

I would not buy a printer for these sizes if I would not need it every day. It is so easy today to send the data to a print shop at let them do this. They even bring you the result by courier for not to much money. Find out, how many prints you have to make, until break even. Include the ink costs as well. In general quality at the print shops is quite good. Consider to have just some electronic scrap after 3 years or so when its outdated.

[foto-fanatic]

Interesting about the grain, makes full sense, some careful post sounds like a necessary thing too, luckily the shop im buying from is throwing in a roll of photo paper and is coming out to help set it up and they offer icc profiles for there papers too, going to be a great chance to learn more for me.

 

This is all stellar info many thanks !!!

 

Its a huge printer, il have to put a lot of time in, but frankly, i cant think of anything more in the world id like to do, i can see the whole house becoming totally wall to wall in every room after 6 mnths lol. [insert enthusiastic snickering here]   oh well the worst thing you can do so ive learnt is leave a big printer idle makes sense too.

 

The last time i printed myself was aquatint zinc plate and litho & lino and screenprint etc except for the odd self developed b&w 120 photos to a3 at home from my mamiya days but the local print shop guy with digital files is rubbish!!

 

Thats why im getting it, to have granular and artistic control, a lot of them are just not artists [ not that im anything special either but i like to believe got some idea lol, hopefully more then them!!!]

 

Im very excited. Never owned a printer, only  a home made enlarger etc.

 

just cant see the point in paying print shop all that money to do it, u might as well just own one.

[ericwestpheling]

You can order from good print shops online...might save a lot of money and headache vs operating a large printer.

 

In the USA I am using AdoramaPix.com and if you wait for one the frequent sales you can get an 8x10 print for $0.99.

 

Alternatively PrintSpace here in NYC will print with an Epson 11880 on Hanahemule Baryta paper for $28/ea.

 

While that is a completely different product than a Kodak Endura 8x10, it is too much for my budget.

 

I would do the same if there were a 8.5x11 size printer that was economical with the ink like the larger format ones. I don't have space for even the 13x19 size machines.

[Golem]

When our capture was film but our output was already

digital, we would make an 11x4 for scanning. We kept

the file size to between 2.5 and 3.5 mb tiffs and the

typical print size to 30x45. No problems that viewers

often stood only 2 or 3 ft from the prints.

 

Here's the key: If the IQ actually looks bad, even a

somewhat smaller print size won't help too much. But

if it looks OK, easy and pleasant to view, no normal

person speculates or wonders what a better sensor or

printer or whatever improved hardware might do for it

by way of improvement. Some members of this forum

do not fall into the category of "normal" as it is meant

just above. If the IQ geeks are your majority viewers

then no print will ever be good enuf and you should

better off take up English Horn or Poetry.

 

BTW we printed in ordinary 4-color CMYK, back when

6-color CcMmYK was state of the art exotica. And our

printer was really designed as a plotter for CAD output !

Digital imaging tech has evolved considerably since

then, but normal human viewing audiences have NOT.

 

`

[foto-fanatic]

^Thats a good point, The thing is with ordering online there is a waiting time of maybe days and no one is doing it in my area except for one guy with a print shop 20 mins away and hes not much chop. Kmart does it too but there rubbish as well.

a friend is setting up a photographic studio and he will need printing for that.

 

So i was going to supply prints to local business/individual photographers too etc, as well with a local pickup/drop off service [my cars on lpg gas] as well as clients being able to work one to one with me to get the results they want, i could offer same day delivery on a small scale but high quality to slowly over time offset the cost with things like shop window posters, real estate printing for cad drawings or plan drawings etc, this printer will print on almost any medium, as far as running it and maintining it, im one of those guys that can fix and repair almost anything and ive got a good grasp of software too.

I have heard of many artists i know becoming very frustrated after ordering prints online, with poor results and high prices. This is australia afterall, nothing is cheap here!!

I have a spare clean room room i can set up. 

 

Printing technology has not changed in 6-7 years its at a pinnacle the same printers are selling now from 08.

You only live once. I appreciate the feed back anyway, well worth considering,

[iul]

So - you'll be the new print shop guy for your area (and the courier service as well)

 

:-)

 

That might help: http://www.amazon.com/Fine-Art-Printing-Photographers-Exhibition/dp/1937538249/

 

All the best for your business !

[dbmiller]

Most Epson printers have an LPI (Half-tone Lines Per Inch) of 180. Recommended best output is twice the LPI, but you can still get decent prints at or near the LPI value.

 

6000x4000 (24mp) would be 16.7" x 11.1" at 360dpi, or 33.3" x 22.2" at 180dpi. 24" roll paper shouldn't be a problem.

 

My daughter used 24" roll paper at school with large format Epson printers, and I know we printed at least 20x30 on it from my A6000 and it looks fine.

 

Prior year, we printed 18x24 from my 5n (16mp) and those also look fine.

[foto-fanatic]

I havent committed to it just yet, its a lot of money and theres a lot to consider. last thing i wanted to do was rush in etc.

It has been good to get feedback from people on here, i would love to be able to print large even if only for my own art, who wouldn't who loves photography, and to have control over the process and outcome?

 

Unfortunately a1 printers are expensive, i guess its contrived that way for industry.

The one i am thinking of buying is second hand and about half the price.

 

However before i commit i wanted to get as much opinion and feedback as possible to help me make my decision and this thread has been great for that.

If i dont go large format i may compromise with a new 3880 or p800 @ a2 size instead.

Its a hard decision to make at the moment.

 

Thanks for everyones input.

[LeButler]

I'd also suggest: send one of your "great but not the very best" pictures to a print house (ideally one that uses a similar printer) and see the result for real for yourself before buying the printer.

[lisabeaney]

The other thing to think about is the cost of the inks and how much you will use it ! 

 

Printers need to be used regularly, the inks start to dry out if you don't and the printer will want to do its cleaning routine that uses a LOT of ink ! I ended up selling our Epson 4880 because it didn't make financial sense to run it. It actually worked out cheaper (and easier) to out source the printing to a lab... 

[foto-fanatic]

I'd also suggest: send one of your "great but not the very best" pictures to a print house (ideally one that uses a similar printer) and see the result for real for yourself before buying the printer.

 

Thats a capital suggestion right there,^

good one, that would also let me determine the cost v quality too. Ive only had a4 or a3 done at local guy, it was mush, and way too dark, no clarity, on photographic paper and all but not cheap either, thats what put me off frankly, but theres others probably better in the city.

 

@lisa b,

yes im aware of that too, the inks becoming hardened due to inactivity and clogging the head yes? My friend recommended taking the ink cartridges out and shaking them, however, ive also been told air bubbles can cause problems so not so sure of that advice, may be ok for small printers.

My personal use case in my mind would be one to two large prints a week, with several preliminary prints to ascertain profiles and setup/settings etc, ive got photographer friends too who want prints done as well.

 

ink prices for large format printers is quite a bit cheaper per ml than smaller ones, the cost goes down exponentially as the size goes up, according to my research.[still hardly "cheap" though, cheeky beggars!!!!]

 

p.s. lisa i got warned to stay away from the 4880 i got told people have had problems with it, that was by a salesman.

I have also been told you can get away with turning off the maintenance cycle and only running it when necessary to save inks etc. So long as your using the printer with frequency etc, not saying i believe it.

 

great and thank you again, decision being made by this weekend after testing it and looking it over etc.

If it doesnt feel right il go with either a new 3880 or p800 when there released in aus. And shout myself a new lens too instead.

[Golem]

Most Epson printers have an LPI (Half-tone Lines Per Inch)

of 180. Recommended best output is twice the LPI, but you

can still get decent prints at or near the LPI value.

 

6000x4000 (24mp) would be 16.7" x 11.1" at 360dpi, or 33.3"

x 22.2" at 180dpi. 24" roll paper shouldn't be a problem.

 

My daughter used 24" roll paper at school with large format

Epson printers, and I know we printed at least 20x30 on it

from my A6000 and it looks fine.

 

Prior year, we printed 18x24 from my 5n (16mp) and those

also look fine.

The reason that you and anyone else can now violate the

old rule of twice the halftone DPI is that printers are no

longer 4-color halftone.

 

With classic/legacy 4-color, the structure of the halftone

image, the grid you see in a finished print, was excessively

visible in the extreme tones. The halftone grid looks much

smoother in the midtones.

 

Todays printers do not depend on "stressing" the halftone

grid for the extreme tones. By using 2 or even 3 different

densities of ink for each color, you avoid "faking density"

via the old classic/legacy halftone structure.

 

That effect of graduated ink density was in use long before

digital printers. Some of the best looking B&W photo books

uses "duotone" printing, which is two different densities of

ink using two different halftone exposures of the original

picture to customize two different halftone printing plates

to apply the two different ink densities to the printed page.

 

`

 

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[Cheatah]

With PS you are able to scale up images to an very large size!  The attached image is made with an 16MP bridge camera at Mongolia, and printed on canvas in a size of 120 x 80 cm! No sweat!

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[foto-fanatic]

Hey cheatah, how do you scale it up in photoshop? Is it possible to explain briefly, i have scored a [first] paid photo shoot coming up and the guy wants prints too, going to buy the new epson p800 when its released here soon, to print myself etc. That should do the job for him anyways i hope.

[Cheatah]

Hey cheatah, how do you scale it up in photoshop? Is it possible to explain briefly, i have scored a [first] paid photo shoot coming up and the guy wants prints too, going to buy the new epson p800 when its released here soon, to print myself etc. That should do the job for him anyways i hope.

 

Very simple, I do it mostly with XnView and increase it to 300dpi!  That's all!    

[foto-fanatic]

Hey all lovely forum members etc i got the epson sc-p800 printer today and 2 packs of canson a4 combo and 1 pack a2 canson photosatin premium [ouch not cheap pffft!!], ive done two test prints so far on the a4, wow, im in for a good time with this thing already.

 

Oooh the print quality is so good its almost horrible.

There are no proper profiles from canson yet though, so im using the epson generic which are a bit dull, i will experiment anyhow and try juicing the colours up for some pop, as the prints are not matching the colours , a bit off, but, still look phenomenal, its very tight the resolution, ridiculous, i printed a persons face in b/w and the silky monotonal transitions of shadow to light are really incredible, gorgous.

 

This printer kicks points man.      

 

Thanx for eveyones input and sharing of advice etc, cool.