Could use some advice: high-speed sports with my a77

[chiba]

Hi gang!  I came here seeking wisdom, advice and maybe a little sympathy, too.

 

One of my jobs requires me to attend and photograph motorcycle races (I know, tough life!) and I'm having trouble getting good photographs.I find myself stuck, unable to improve the quality of my photographs when I'm at the track. 

 

My setup is a first-generation a77 with just over 7,500 exposures run through it. The lens I use most often is Sony's 55-300 (4.5/5.6) zoom, and most often I find myself between 100 and 200 mm given the safe distance requirements and barriers used at the tracks.

 

 

I have gone through my settings and tried to create a setup that is conducive to high-speed subjects - focus tracking, continuous shooting, etc. - but the vast majority of my photos are still soft at best. I try to keep the ISO at 400 or below and shutter speeds in the 320-500 range because that usually gives the best combination of stopping the rider while allowing the wheels to show motion blur and the background to soften.

 

I have practiced my panning, breathing and other physical techniques meant to minimize shake and instability - but it doesn't seem to be helping much.

 

My friends and coworkers keep telling me to ditch Sony and get a Canon or Nikon, because "that's what the pros use."  I am convinced my a77 can handle the task, but I'm at a loss as to how to make that happen.  Is there a technique I can try? A setting I should use? A lens that would make a difference?  I can probably afford one new lens, but I don't want to throw money at this problem if I don't have to.

 

I'm wondering if the collective here can offer any advice.  Thanks!

 

[Guest Jaf-Photo]

One thing I can think of is that the AF motor is too slow in the 55-300.

 

A lens with SSM motor would work much better with the A77 autofocus.

[VTC]

Suggestion. Football season is here. Take camera and lens to wherever schools are playing and try different setups / settings. Fast paced action that you can shoot away and not be concerned about screwing up a paycheck shoot. Rent a lens if you think it's a focus speed problem of your current glass. If you want to experiment on something the equivalent speed of motorcycles, I suggest photographing a freeway curve ramp. You can practice on tracking cars and the occasional motorcycle that goes by.

[michelb]

Monopod ?

 

Tripod ?

[Moody]

One thing I can think of is that the AF motor is too slow in the 55-300.

 

A lens with SSM motor would work much better with the A77 autofocus.

 

I suspect this, you might hit the limit of this lens' capabilities.

It is known for being very sharp, but having a somewhat slow AF (especially under less than ideal light).

 

You may want to check microadjustment and/or step down the aperture to see if it helps... but it won't if it's an AF speed limitation.

[wedge]

I agree with you, the A77 can totally handle that task.  I also agree with others here, you may need to upgrade the lens.

 

If you want to stay really cheap ($100 or less), the 55-200 is supposed to be sharper than the 55-300.  You could also try the beercan.  

Spending a bit more, the obvious choice is the Minolta 80-200 2.8 HS APO G.  You can pick up one of those for $500-$600.  And it's totally worth it.  If you're doing this as a job, that amount of money should be easy to justify.  

Next step up from that would be either the Tamron 70-200 2.8 USD or the Sony 70-200 2.8, which can both be picked up used for around $1000+.

  

I highly recommend renting a good lens before buying it.  That way you can try it and see if it will get you the results you're expecting, without spending too much.  Many local rental shops have really good deals for renting for a weekend.  My local shop charges 1 day for a whole weekend.  But if they don't have what you need, check borrowlenses, or lensrentals, I've used both, and they are both good.

 

 

Of course the best gear in the world won't help you without good technique.  Can you post some of your shots? and we'll gladly give feedback.

[Guest Jaf-Photo]

I would suggest the Sony 70-300 G as the affordable option and the 70-200 G or 70-400 G as the more expensive option.

 

But I think the 70-300 will do the job, even in the first version, although the second version has faster AF. It's a very good match for my A77II at least. I've used it for shooting moving objects such as motorbikes and even more difficult: flying birds.

 

The other lenses mentioned below have slower AF, including screw drive and SAM motor. Probably won't be a lot faster than the 55-300.

 

 

 

I agree with you, the A77 can totally handle that task.  I also agree with others here, you may need to upgrade the lens.

 

If you want to stay really cheap ($100 or less), the 55-200 is supposed to be sharper than the 55-300.  You could also try the beercan.  

Spending a bit more, the obvious choice is the Minolta 80-200 2.8 HS APO G.  You can pick up one of those for $500-$600.  And it's totally worth it.  If you're doing this as a job, that amount of money should be easy to justify.  

Next step up from that would be either the Tamron 70-200 2.8 USD or the Sony 70-200 2.8, which can both be picked up used for around $1000+.

  

I highly recommend renting a good lens before buying it.  That way you can try it and see if it will get you the results you're expecting, without spending too much.  Many local rental shops have really good deals for renting for a weekend.  My local shop charges 1 day for a whole weekend.  But if they don't have what you need, check borrowlenses, or lensrentals, I've used both, and they are both good.

 

 

Of course the best gear in the world won't help you without good technique.  Can you post some of your shots? and we'll gladly give feedback.

[yoeddy007]

I would try letting the ISO go a little higher but using a faster shutter speed.

[wedge]

including screw drive and SAM motor

 

Screw drive and SAM do not necessarily mean slow.  They just mean loud.

All of the screw drive lenses I mentioned are known for amazing fast focus.  Some say even faster than the SAL70200G SSM (1st gen)

 

I personally use the Minolta 200mm F2.8 on an A77II, and I can confirm that the focus speed is comparable to any SSM lens.

[Guest Jaf-Photo]

Screw drives and SAM motors don't work as well as SSM motors with Sony's advanced autofocus functions in recent cameras. I personally have no problem using them in various situations, but I don't think they would help the OP to achieve better focus than he's currently getting.

[wedge]

Screw drives and SAM motors don't work as well as SSM motors with Sony's advanced autofocus functions in recent cameras. I personally have no problem using them in various situations, but I don't think they would help the OP to achieve better focus than he's currently getting.

 

Of course you can't go wrong with SSM.  But he said he doesn't want to spend money, and all of those lenses are expensive.  The screw drive lenses that are designed to be fast are a fraction of the price, and waaaay better than what he's using now.  Work within the budget!

 

Anyway, it really doesn't sound like he's having focus problems anyway.  It sound much more like technique that needs to be improved.  That's why I ask for some sample pics.  We're all just guessing until we see that.

[Colorado]

Just a quick technique suggestion. I have shot a lot of action and when a track is involved I pre-focus 90% of my shots. Pick a good corner, jump or straight away with a good vantage point and background (if you are lucky) Then simply manual focus for that spot. Your hit rate will increase significantly with your current hardware. Try this first before spending a dime. By the way I do this with my A77II and the 70 to 200 G SSM II and always walk away with 80 plus percent in focus much better then when I am in run and gun mode. Also panning with a 300mm equivalent focal length at a shutter speed of ~ 1/400 is a little low in my humble opinion. Good luck.

[Guest Jaf-Photo]

The 70-300G is $600 new and about half that used. How is that expensive for a lens that does the job? You'll pay $6-800 on eBay for the Minolta lens and still be stuck with screw drive.

 

Of course you can't go wrong with SSM.  But he said he doesn't want to spend money, and all of those lenses are expensive.  The screw drive lenses that are designed to be fast are a fraction of the price, and waaaay better than what he's using now.  Work within the budget!

 

Anyway, it really doesn't sound like he's having focus problems anyway.  It sound much more like technique that needs to be improved.  That's why I ask for some sample pics.  We're all just guessing until we see that.

[chiba]

One thing I can think of is that the AF motor is too slow in the 55-300.

 

A lens with SSM motor would work much better with the A77 autofocus.

Hadn't even crossed my mind that it could be the lens' motor that's the hitch - definitely worth investigating and I'll try a couple other lenses. I'm pretty sure I have a beercan around here somewhere.

 

Suggestion. Football season is here. Take camera and lens to wherever schools are playing and try different setups / settings. Fast paced action that you can shoot away and not be concerned about screwing up a paycheck shoot. Rent a lens if you think it's a focus speed problem of your current glass. If you want to experiment on something the equivalent speed of motorcycles, I suggest photographing a freeway curve ramp. You can practice on tracking cars and the occasional motorcycle that goes by.

Great idea on the football games - I think there's a few more games in the season before things wrap up at the local level.  Given a previous experience photographing bikes on an organized ride, I might hold off on the ramp idea - people tend to call police when there's a strange man standing on the side of the road photographing cars!

 

I'll post up a couple of images when I get a chance - but until then, THANK YOU for the comments and ideas. I really appreciate it!!

[chiba]

Here's some photos from the recent weekend.  I put in some photos of non-moving (or at least non-moving-fast) subjects that I know I did with the same lens. Thanks again for the help/advice/comments.  Each 600x400 photo is followed by the URL of the full size (6000x4000) version.  No cropping or manipulation - these are converted straight from raw to jpg by Lightroom.

 

My wife says I might be being too hard on myself, but I know my editor will be highly critical, as he's looking at them for print suitability, not just popping them up on social media or a website.

 

http://www.unlikelyprofessor.com/files/pix/DSC06558.jpg

 

http://www.unlikelyprofessor.com/files/pix/DSC06717.jpg

 

http://www.unlikelyprofessor.com/files/pix/DSC06797.jpg

 

http://www.unlikelyprofessor.com/files/pix/DSC07401.jpg

 

(thumbnail is a bit screwy, but the full size is not)

http://www.unlikelyprofessor.com/files/pix/DSC07415.jpg

 

http://www.unlikelyprofessor.com/files/pix/DSC07426.jpg

[wedge]

The 70-300G is $600 new and about half that used. 

 

 

I only see it for $1000 new.

Where are you seeing it for 6?

 

 

 

 You'll pay $6-800 on eBay for the Minolta lens and still be stuck with screw drive.

 

I'll take a professional F2.8 screw-drive lens, over a consumer class F5.6 SSM any day.  Like I said, SSM has a lot more to do with noise than speed.

The wide aperture also helps the camera focus faster.

[wedge]

After looking at the pics.  I see what you mean.  A bit soft, and grainy.  

I would say try stopping down, but some of them already are and they have the same issues.

 

Someone else mentioned the AF micro adjustment.  That could be it.  In the shot of the guy in the fire suit, it looks like the focus might be behind your subject.  

 

If I'm reading the exif right... you're shooting in P mode?

I would be shooting in S mode at 100 ISO.  Change the shutter speed depending on which type of shot you're trying to get.  And let the camera do whatever it wants with the aperture.

 

In the first shot, where a group is coming at you, and there's no panning at all, I think a faster shutter is needed.  More like 1/1000 (or faster) is needed in that situation.  This is where a big aperture is needed, so that you don't have to crank up the ISO.

The panning shots, I think you could actually go slower, experiment and try to get the shutter down to 1/200 to 1/100.  1/80 can make amazing shots, but get your safety shots before trying that speed.

 

When you're getting your panning shots, start at a higher shutter speed where you know you can get the shot.  And throughout the day, bring that speed down, once you know you've got at least a few keepers.  

[Guest Jaf-Photo]

Hadn't even crossed my mind that it could be the lens' motor that's the hitch - definitely worth investigating and I'll try a couple other lenses. I'm pretty sure I have a beercan around here somewhere.

 

The beercan has a screwdrive and it's clunky. The A77 really needs a SSM lens to have full use of the autofocus system. it's what you need to track fast moving objects.

[wedge]

The beercan has a screwdrive and it's clunky. The A77 really needs a SSM lens to have full use of the autofocus system.

 

If he already has one, I think it's at least worth a try.

[Guest Jaf-Photo]

I have shot motorbikes with 70-300G on A77II. There's nothing to it. I just track and pan and take the shot whenever it looks good. I've also had the beercan for years and it cannot track. It lags and hunts. I would not take it to a paid job shooting any kind of sports.

 

As this is paid work I don't understand why it would be a problem to get a lens that does the job.

 

If he already has one, I think it's at least worth a try.