Proper way to use EVF with flash?

[AndyWear]

So I've been shooting flash with  the A7 for awhile and I've been meaning to ask this question.

 

When looking in the EVF with flash attached, the EVF reacts differently.  It brightens up, making me believe what I'm getting would be what I'm seeing but that is not the case. It's basically just brightening up the ambient lighitngi which looks really nice at times. 

I try to get that same exact look and boom.....my flash goes up and my image looks nothing like that!  I'm always expecting my ambient lighting to look the same, but with some flash fill, but nope.  Is there a proper way to look at this?

[Guest Peter Kelly]

Unfortunately, because using a flash 'complicates' the exposure, the effect in the viewfinder is never ideal.

 

First, you do need to have 'Live view Effect' on to see any changes. However, because the flash is effectively a powerful point of light, the changes cannot be created correctly in the viewfinder!

To do so would need an extraordinary ability to measure distances to every object and their reflectivity, as well as taking into account the overall light. That's why the appearance is very similar to changing ambient light, as it lightens everything equally, which is not what a flash does. Ultimately it comes down to experience and how you want to set your camera.

 

Of course, you can just rely on the flash and often the background will be dark.

 

But, if you prefer to emphasise ambient light, you'll need to prioritise all the usual controls (higher ISO, slower shutter, or bigger aperture) and take into account the effects (noise, blur, and DoF).

At the same time you'll probably have to dial down the flash output. This brings you into the realms of reverse or slow sync (dragging the shutter), which you can research easily online.

 

As I mentioned, because of the complexity, I don't think it's possible for the EVF to give an accurate rendition. To be fair, though, this is even more the case for OVF which could look very dark indeed, no matter what your settings!

 

The bottom line is that using flash is a skill in itself and one that even some pros struggle with. Next time you watch the news, just see how many covering the big stories are using bounce where the ceilings are dark, very high, or even outdoors! Not so long ago I saw the only photographer given close access to President Obama doing exactly that. You'd imagine that someone in such a privileged position would know how to use a flash, but apparently not, so don't worry that you are making some 'newbie' error!

 

Use the EVF as a guide, but pay far more attention to the instant playback when using flash. My preference is to push the ambient to its limit and dial back the flash. You get a better balanced shot that way, unless you specifically don't want the background.

[adwb]

not sure on the A7 but on 7r2 you have hidden in the button assignable functions one called SHOT RESULT PREVIEW and it does  just that , it will show you what the ambient plus flash will look like and fix your problem,

 

thank you beers can be paid for by paypal

[Soeren]

So if you have your flash on a TTL cable it can predict angle and size of modifier?

[Guest Peter Kelly]

not sure on the A7 but on 7r2 you have hidden in the button assignable functions one called SHOT RESULT PREVIEW and it does  just that , it will show you what the ambient plus flash will look like and fix your problem,

 

 

I didn't think an attached flash affected that mode. In my experience it's not a very useful tool and doesn't show the effect of the flash.

 

To be honest, I think a quick test shot and instant review is the only way to get good results. You just have to be sure your subjects know there'll be more than one shot, so they don't look away or wander off!

[addicted2light]

If I understand correctly you want to get basically an image correctly exposed by the ambient light, just with a bit of "kick" in the shadows from the flash.

 

To achieve this you should:

- shoot in M (manual) with Auto Iso OFF

- take one or more test shots with the flash off, to determine your desired exposure for the ambient lighting (remember: the aperture affects BOTH flash and ambient light, while the shutter speed ONLY the ambient light as long is long enough to let the flash sync). As a rule of thumb for a nice fill you'll want to set the flash compensation to -1 1/2 or -2

- using the exposure values you just found, take one or more test shots to determine the level of fill you want from the flash. To do this you will have to use the camera "Flash Exposure Compensation" if you're using a TTL flash, or the Exposure compensation on the flash itself if you're using an Automatic flash (i.e. non TTL).

- once you set these two values (the correct exposure for the ambient light, and the correct amount of correction to apply to the flash) you are good to go.

 

Once you get the gist of it finding the correct values it is longer to explain than to actually do.

 

If, instead, I misunderstood you and instead you want the flash to overpower the ambient light, meaning if you want to expose the image only (or mostly) via the flash light, then you should:

- set  'Live view Effect' to off (this way you'll see the scene without the camera trying to "boost" the exposure, just like it was through an optical viewfinder)

- take one or more test shots to determine a shutter speed/aperture combination that will let you drop the ambient light at negligible levels

- take one or more test shots to determine the right compensation for the flash to correctly expose your image

 

In both cases as long as you stay in the same ambient/location the values of shutter speed, aperture and flash exposure compensation should stay pretty much the same, and the AUTO on the flash (or the TTL system in the camera in the case of a TTL flash) will take care of the small corrections needed for subjects at different distances.

[christer]

I measure the power of the non-TTL  flash with a Gossen Digiflash before I shoot and then set exposure manually. 

[Golem]

So I've been shooting flash with  the A7 for awhile and I've been meaning to ask this question.

 

When looking in the EVF with flash attached, the EVF reacts differently.  It brightens up, making me believe what I'm getting would be what I'm seeing but that is not the case. It's basically just brightening up the ambient lighitngi which looks really nice at times. 

I try to get that same exact look and boom.....my flash goes up and my image looks nothing like that!  I'm always expecting my ambient lighting to look the same, but with some flash fill, but nope.  Is there a proper way to look at this?

If you want to get what you see in the VF, just turn off the flash.

[Golem]

I really like using non-TTL autoflash, which

allows the flash to vary its own output such

that the amount of light at the subject never

varies, regardless of distance. This allows

working at a constant f-stop. Most of these

flashes offer the choice of 3 or 4 different

f-stops. Smaller stops require more output,

but the automation takes care of that.

 

What I love about these flashes is that you

can control the flash-to-ambient ratio just

by using a different f-stop than the f-stop

the flash is "asking for". IOW, a range that

requires f/4.0 can be used at f/8, so that the

flash exposure will be 2 stops shy of a full

exposure. Use the shutter speed required for

correct ambient exposure, and your ambient

exposure would be fully sufficient WITHOUT

the added boost of the flash [weakened to be

2 stops shy of full]. Soooooo, always shave a

1/3 of a stop off the ambient light exposure

[set shutter 1/3 stop faster].

 

You can juggle the ratio. If the flash is only

1 stop shy of full exposure, shave 2/3 stop

[or a whole stop .... season to taste] off of

the ambient exposure shutter speed.

 

The basic idea is that, when using this type

of flash, the ambient exposure is dependent

on the shutter speed while the flash exposure

is dependent on the f-stop. In case this may

seem mysterious, you need to read up on the

basics of artificial light exposures.

[Soeren]

I try if possible to use my flash off camera bounced on a wall at say 1/8-1/16 and the ISO on camera @400-800.Testshots show which aperture to use in the different zones of the room. Then again that is not always possible. And guys, remember youve got lightmeters and histograms on camera so testshooting the ambient light is not always necessary.

[AndyWear]

Thanks for the replies! I didn't expect to see so many response.

What you guys said confused me a lot to be honest, but I'll read it over tomorrow and t ry them out.

I'm very amateur with flash just to reitterate.

I've been playing with manual flash so that I can actually learn it, so I haven't really touched TTL.  I'll eventually learn TTL, but right now I don't really know exactly what its main purpose is.  I was assuming it means that the flash will automatically meter the light for me.  And then I read some of the replies above talking about

Non-TTL automatic flash.  That REALLY confused me.  I always assumed that TTL was basically automati flash.

 

I think maybe I should turn off the live view setting when using flash from now on, it always confuses me, giving me a false sense of what light I have.

Also Golem, I can't just turn off the flash to get what I want in the live view because most the time when I'm using flash, its in low light where I wouldn't be able to shoot in low light without hand shaking.  I'll have to read what you said again after that because it was very confusing.lol

 

I'l have to look up SHOT RESULT PREVIEW. It sounds amazing, but not sure how that works. The camera would have to be able to predict where the flashes are?  That seems nearly impossible.  Maybe I'm wrong.  I don't think my camera has that, but I have to look it up now.

 

And addicted2light,  yeah I want the ambient lighting with a kick of flash, but thinking about it, I wouldn't be able to do that without a tripod  or with people standing there would I?  Would flash be able to stop an object and keep it sharp while slow shuttering for ambient light on a tripod? Or will the subject be out of focused?  I only have one flash at the moment.

 

 

ANOTHER very noob  question.

You guys mention here a lot flash exposure compensation.  I've actually never used that before.  I've been shooting in manual flash, so it shouldnt apply right? The flash exposure compensation are just used for TTL?

And....

There's also that exposure compensation dial on the camera.  That is something I've never once used.  I've always wondered with the  purpose of that  dial is for.

I only control ISO, Shutter and Aperture.

Is the exposure compensation dial a universal dial that controls ISO, SHUTTER and Aperture together up and down?

[addicted2light]

1

Manual flash = the flash shoots at full power; if your particular flash doesn't have manual adjustments (for ex. "1/2 power, 1/4th power" etc.) then your only means to control the lighting output of the flash is to change the distance from flash to subject (or use the aperture on the lens, more on this later)

 

Automatic flash = a flash that integrates a sensor (an exposure meter like the ones found in cameras) and uses it to automatically determine exposure, based on how much light the subject is reflecting back

 

TTL flash = like "Automatic flash", but in this case the sensor reading the exposure (and so cutting or extending the duration of the flash) is inside the camera, so your exposure is read Through The Lens (TTL). Usually not that different from "Automatic flash" IMHO, unless you're shooting macro

 

2

Using a flash to give a kick to the ambient lightning when the light is low will give you different results depending on how much "low" the light is. The flash will freeze anyway your subjects, but depending on how much ambient light you're allowing the sensor to register you could have a "ghosting" effect given by the movement of your subjects. It is not always bad: for example it is a great way to convey a sense of motion for parties, concerts etc.

 

3

"Exposure compensation" operates on the ambient light; the camera will alter the parameter you're not controlling directly. For example, if you're shooting in A (aperture priority, when you choose the aperture) the camera will vary the shutter speed; if you're instead shooting in S (shutter speed priority) the camera will vary the aperture

 

"Flash exposure compensation" applies only to the light emitted by a TTL flash

 

4

Flash isn't really difficult to master. All you have to keep in mind is that while ambient light (i.e. a "normal", no-flash exposure) is controlled by aperture, shutter speed and Iso, a flash exposure (as long as you're using a shutter speed that will let the camera sync with the flash) is controlled ONLY by aperture and Iso.

 

So, in the case of fill flash, you should first determine your "normal" exposure for the ambient light, and keep in mind that for "normal" I mean how much ambient light you want, not just a "correct" exposure (that's why you have to do test shots). For example, you may decide that you want to use the flash as a main light, but using the ambient as a kick (so reversing the usual way). Once you've done that, you can alter how much flash light you'll get in your exposure opening or closing the aperture (and compensating these variations with the shutter speed, that will not affect the flash).

 

I know it looks complicated, but once you start playing with the settings it becomes pretty easy.

 

The best place to start learning about flash btw is:

 

http://strobist.blogspot.it/2006/03/lighting-101.html

[seb]

...

4

Flash isn't really difficult to master. All you have to keep in mind is that while ambient light (i.e. a "normal", no-flash exposure) is controlled by aperture, shutter speed and Iso, a flash exposure (as long as you're using a shutter speed that will let the camera sync with the flash) is controlled ONLY by aperture and Iso.

...

 

well done summary! one thing to add:

with ambient light, the brightness of the lightsource is fix and you can only make the scene brighter with a longer exposure. On a flash it's the other way around. So its controlled by aperture, iso AND used power on your flash(es).

[Soeren]

Off camera manual flash aint that difficult. Mostly youve got 2 options, not counting ISO, to adjust your exposure. Turn the output on the flash up or down or use a bigger or smaller aperture.

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[AndyWear]

addicted2light,

Thanks for writing all that down!  I really appreciate it.

Ill have to look at that  link at strobist and spend the weekend playing with it.

That ghosting affect I wanna try and attempt to do soon.  I'm shooting this muay thai guy and i feel that might look great for this showing motion.

[addicted2light]

addicted2light,

Thanks for writing all that down!  I really appreciate it.

Ill have to look at that  link at strobist and spend the weekend playing with it.

That ghosting affect I wanna try and attempt to do soon.  I'm shooting this muay thai guy and i feel that might look great for this showing motion.

 

 

 

No problem at all!

 

But muay thai? Now you've got to show us some of the pictures!

[Golem]

You need to fully understand camera functions without

flash in order to then have a grasp on the foundation

exposure which the flash then enhances, augments,

or supplants. The latter means flash is the principal or

the only effective light source. This could be true

even in well lit interior scenes if the shutter speed

is fast enuf to render ambient illumination useless

at the aperture in use for the flash. A more powerful

flash can operate at f/16 or f/22. Most handholdable

shutter speeds will not register any ambient light

exposure at such small apertures.

 

BTW I wrote above: "camera functions". This is beyond

knowing camera OPERATIONS, which requires merely

rote ability to read and follow instructions. "Functions"

implies that you grasp the interrelationship of ISO,

shutter time, and aperture, and become able to "see"

the world from the sensors "frame of mind".

 

 

----------------------------------------------

 

 

Back in the day ... you hadda see the world from the

FILM's frame of mind ... harder to learn, unless you

had a big budget for Polaroid film, so as to benefit

from rapid feedback about your efforts. Today you get

instant feedback at no extra expense, so you have no

excuse for not learning to "see like a sensor" and to

to grasp how camera functions impact what you see.

[AndyWear]

No problem at all!

 

But muay thai? Now you've got to show us some of the pictures!

 

-----

Sorry I didn't realized you asked to see it.  

I shot a more recent one here.  As I was shooting I realized my A7 was just too slow for this type of photography and probably need an A600 for it.  I had to count and time the shots alot which made me lose a lot of good shots.  Some shots had something really cool in it, but always something wrong.  Oh well.  I will try again!

 

https://app.box.com/s/a1umsjb4fepbhshxk1jnt6cw1ix107xj

https://app.box.com/s/5y1993rw4r1xi9d3k5vr5e25f2mzy2ao

https://app.box.com/s/9nus86ykxwzs03y6oatbjphci2xyyv08

 

[addicted2light]

 

No problem at all!

 

But muay thai? Now you've got to show us some of the pictures!

 

-----

Sorry I didn't realized you asked to see it.  

I shot a more recent one here.  As I was shooting I realized my A7 was just too slow for this type of photography and probably need an A600 for it.  I had to count and time the shots alot which made me lose a lot of good shots.  Some shots had something really cool in it, but always something wrong.  Oh well.  I will try again!

 

https://app.box.com/s/a1umsjb4fepbhshxk1jnt6cw1ix107xj

https://app.box.com/s/5y1993rw4r1xi9d3k5vr5e25f2mzy2ao

https://app.box.com/s/9nus86ykxwzs03y6oatbjphci2xyyv08

 

 

 

 

Really nice pics, I like a lot the second one!

 

Btw, why don't you try to focus manually? In this kind of low light situations I usually have a better rate manually focusing than fighting the AF system hunting around. 

 

Also do not forget to enable, if you haven't already, the EFCS (electronic front curtain shutter) on the A7. It cuts the shutter lag to a super fast 0.022s.

 

To put this in perspective:

A6000 0.022s

A7 (with EFCS on) 0.023s

Nikon D5 0.039s

Canon Eos 1Dx 0.054s

[addicted2light]

 

No problem at all!

 

But muay thai? Now you've got to show us some of the pictures!

 

-----

Sorry I didn't realized you asked to see it.  

I shot a more recent one here.  As I was shooting I realized my A7 was just too slow for this type of photography and probably need an A600 for it.  I had to count and time the shots alot which made me lose a lot of good shots.  Some shots had something really cool in it, but always something wrong.  Oh well.  I will try again!

 

https://app.box.com/s/a1umsjb4fepbhshxk1jnt6cw1ix107xj

https://app.box.com/s/5y1993rw4r1xi9d3k5vr5e25f2mzy2ao

https://app.box.com/s/9nus86ykxwzs03y6oatbjphci2xyyv08

 

 

 

 

Really nice pics, I like a lot the second one!

 

Btw, why don't you try to focus manually? In this kind of low light situations I usually have a better rate manually focusing than fighting the AF system hunting around. 

 

Also do not forget to enable, if you haven't already, the EFCS (electronic front curtain shutter) on the A7. It cuts the shutter lag to a super fast 0.022s.

 

To put this in perspective:

A6000 0.022s

A7 (with EFCS on) 0.023s

Nikon D5 0.039s

Canon Eos 1Dx 0.054s

[AndyWear]

Really nice pics, I like a lot the second one!

 

Btw, why don't you try to focus manually? In this kind of low light situations I usually have a better rate manually focusing than fighting the AF system hunting around. 

 

Also do not forget to enable, if you haven't already, the EFCS (electronic front curtain shutter) on the A7. It cuts the shutter lag to a super fast 0.022s.

 

To put this in perspective:

A6000 0.022s

A7 (with EFCS on) 0.023s

Nikon D5 0.039s

Canon Eos 1Dx 0.054s

 

Thanks for the compliment !  

I'll have to play with that EFCS.  I know you told me about in the previous post, but I forgot to look into it.  I'll educate myself with it more.  As for manual focusing, I realllllllly should learn it.  I am so bad at manual focusing.  I didn't grow up doing photography so I live and die with AutoFocus as my crutch.  I actually did attempt to MF, but I kept missing. I think I'm probably just doing some bone headed stuff.  

 

Another thing I need to play with his face recognition.  I'll see how well it works in low light.