Pixel shift possible on any IBIS camera? A7sIII?

[avalon]

Hello. I realy liked A7s mark 1 and prefer to buy camera with lower resolutions to enjoy high sensitivity opened new possibilities in low light. According to profesional photographer anything above 24Mp is overkill and 12Mp can be enough for most applications. Lens sharpness is also bottleneck. But there are situations where higher resolution is needed and I got intrigued by pixel shift technology offering x4 higher resolution which unfortunally this feature isn't in Sony A7s III despite being recently released and being really expensive. Why it doesn't have this feature which ridiculous resolution models have it?? Can this feature be added to via firmware update?

I know that pixel shift isn't perfect due to even minute vibrations ruining images even when using tripod however maybe this can be compensated by ultra fast expsure times what A7s is good at?

I wanted to upgrade to Canon but I learned that they use oudated frontlit sensors even in newest models when they should have been experimenting  with novel technology such as SPAD or graphene sensors, what a shame.

[Cameratose]

46 minutes ago, avalon said:

Hello. I realy liked A7s mark 1 and prefer to buy camera with lower resolutions to enjoy high sensitivity opened new possibilities in low light. According to profesional photographer anything above 24Mp is overkill and 12Mp can be enough for most applications. Lens sharpness is also bottleneck. But there are situations where higher resolution is needed and I got intrigued by pixel shift technology offering x4 higher resolution which unfortunally this feature isn't in Sony A7s III despite being recently released and being really expensive. Why it doesn't have this feature which ridiculous resolution models have it?? Can this feature be added to via firmware update?

I know that pixel shift isn't perfect due to even minute vibrations ruining images even when using tripod however maybe this can be compensated by ultra fast expsure times what A7s is good at?

 

I wanted to upgrade to Canon but I learned that they use oudated frontlit sensors even in newest models when they should have been experimenting  with novel technology such as SPAD or graphene sensors, what a shame.

 

The days of fewer MP = better low light performance are behind us. New technology and better sensors, combined with better processors makes the difference. If you look at this chart, the 33MP sensor of the A7 IV (which is a low light beast) is at least as good as the others, and far better at lower ISO than either the A7 or A7SIII

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The guy who told you 24MP is overkill was stating opinion, based on his own use case, and that's all. 

No, you cannot upgrade your camera to include pixel shift via firmware. For one thing, Sony would never release such an update, they want you to buy their next camera. 

Lastly, if dynamic range and low light are your goals, then you wouldn't be upgrading by moving to Canon. You would in fact be downgrading. 

[avalon]

A7 IV a low light beast? It has only 51200 ISO. They both use the same BSI-CMOS sensor technology. High resolution means smaller pixels. Essentially all currently made mirrorless camera sensors use silicon based sensors which are inefficient and need to resort to using large pixels to gather enough light. Major shift was from frontlit to BSI-CMOS sensors.

I'd love to see tiny new type sensor cameras with capabilities of full frame cameras to reduce lens size, weight and price.

Is it possible to stitch using A7s III photos together using panoramic mode and horizontal motorized rail guide?

 

Edited October 8, 2024 by avalon

[Pieter]

1 hour ago, avalon said:

High resolution means smaller pixels.

4 small pixels gather the same amount of light as 1 large pixel of equal total area. While the 4 smaller pixels are noisier on pixel level than 1 large pixel, combining the data from those 4 pixels into a single value will cancel the (random) noise and stack the 'signal', resulting in the same signal to noise ratio as a sensor with 4 times the pixel size. Within reasonable limits, pixel size doesn't matter for actual (perceived) dynamic range.

1 hour ago, avalon said:

A7 IV a low light beast? It has only 51200 ISO

Since when is maximum ISO a relevant metric for actual low light performance? The Nikon D5 can shoot at an (extended) ISO of 3,280,000. Is it good at low light? Not particularly better than a camera with a max of 51,200. Maximum ISO really doesn't matter, it's just a marketing gimmick going into ranges noone in their right mind should ever use. A Fujifilm GFX 100 ii has a maximum ISO of only 12,800 but it beats the crap out of a Sony A7Siii in low-light performance.

1 hour ago, avalon said:

I'd love to see tiny new type sensor cameras with capabilities of full frame cameras to reduce lens size, weight and price.

We'd all love hypothetical sci-fi stuff. I'd love a tiny 10-100mm f/1 lens at €100.

1 hour ago, avalon said:

Is it possible to stitch using A7s III photos together using panoramic mode and horizontal motorized rail guide?

No. If you want more megapixels, buy a higher megapixel camera. The high resolution models have this feature because people buying these cameras actually want the highest resolution possible.

Edited October 8, 2024 by Pieter

[Pieter]

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Edited October 8, 2024 by Pieter

[Cameratose]

3 hours ago, avalon said:

A7 IV a low light beast? It has only 51200 ISO. They both use the same BSI-CMOS sensor technology. High resolution means smaller pixels. Essentially all currently made mirrorless camera sensors use silicon based sensors which are inefficient and need to resort to using large pixels to gather enough light. Major shift was from frontlit to BSI-CMOS sensors.

I'd love to see tiny new type sensor cameras with capabilities of full frame cameras to reduce lens size, weight and price.

Is it possible to stitch using A7s III photos together using panoramic mode and horizontal motorized rail guide?

 

Well, you can speculate all you like and cite theory, or you can look at the charts. You can also check DXO, if that suits you. 

And no, it doesn't just go to 51200, again, read the chart. 

Edited October 8, 2024 by Cameratose

[avalon]

8 hours ago, Pieter said:

 

Since when is maximum ISO a relevant metric for actual low light performance? The Nikon D5 can shoot at an (extended) ISO of 3,280,000. Is it good at low light? Not particularly better than a camera with a max of 51,200. Maximum ISO really doesn't matter, it's just a marketing gimmick going into ranges noone in their right mind should ever use. A Fujifilm GFX 100 ii has a maximum ISO of only 12,800 but it beats the crap out of a Sony A7Siii in low-light performance.

We'd all love hypothetical sci-fi stuff. I'd love a tiny 10-100mm f/1 lens at €100.

No. If you want more megapixels, buy a higher megapixel camera. The high resolution models have this feature because people buying these cameras actually want the highest resolution possible.

I need not just low noise but actual good performance in low light conditions and see in the dark what human eye can't. If there is such alternative to Sony A7s with some wonder sensor please tell me.

Such super sensitive sensors are no longer Sci-fi. Graphene CMOS sensors are x1000 more sensitive than current ones. Canon developed SPAD sensor technology that works kind of like analog night vision to amplify signal many times. But these technologies are not yet available for regular folks. Someone needs to figure out how to apply them in mirrorless cad mera's too and have courage to venture into new technology.

As I mentioned I need high sensitivity camera and want to find alternate ways to boost resolution since high resolution comes with disadvantages to image/video quality.

 

[Pieter]

2 hours ago, avalon said:

I need not just low noise but actual good performance in low light conditions and see in the dark what human eye can't. If there is such alternative to Sony A7s with some wonder sensor please tell me.

The best low light cameras are monochromatic to be able to utilize all available light. Is that what you're after? If you want color, the A7Siii is a great performer for nighttime videography.

2 hours ago, avalon said:

Such super sensitive sensors are no longer Sci-fi. Graphene CMOS sensors are x1000 more sensitive than current ones.

Please show me the tests that verify this claim. All I can find on it is a hyped press release for something done on lab scale. For now, that's just pure sci-fi to me.

[avalon]

11 hours ago, Cameratose said:

Well, you can speculate all you like and cite theory, or you can look at the charts. You can also check DXO, if that suits you. 

And no, it doesn't just go to 51200, again, read the chart. 

	Specs say: Auto, 100-51200 (expands to 50-204800). Only native ISO matters which stands for hardware based signal amplification, as far as I know expanded ISO is just meaningless digital gimmick.

3 hours ago, Pieter said:

The best low light cameras are monochromatic to be able to utilize all available light. Is that what you're after? If you want color, the A7Siii is a great performer for nighttime videography.

Please show me the tests that verify this claim. All I can find on it is a hyped press release for something done on lab scale. For now, that's just pure sci-fi to me.

Yes, monochrome camera's are superior especially for UV/IR photography since Bayer color filter mosaic wastes a lot of light. But color information is needed so I need to resort to"normal" camera's besides monochrome Sigma camera's are very expensive. A new approach I like if Foveon sensor and newly being developed quantum dot color sensors.

As I mentioned graphene CMOS camera's as well enhanced ones with quantum dots exist already just they are not yet mass produced to make them more affordable. And their capabilities are even crazier such as enabling Thz vision equivalent to Xray only difference being that's it's safe radiation. Infrared night vision and high resolution thermal camera's also could become reality with graphene implementation.

Full frame camera's could become one day obsolete and that's great news for consumers, maybe not so much for mirrorless camera companies. So I imagine they would first used in phones and drones where size/weight is critical.

 

Edited October 9, 2024 by avalon

[avalon]

High-Resolution Mode the same as pixel shift or different technology?

 

[dclark2171]

I'm surprised the A7Siii does not have pixel shift. Maybe due tom its release date. However the FX3 and ZV-E1 (same sensor) has it. 

[FunWithCameras]

On 11/17/2024 at 1:02 AM, dclark2171 said:

I'm surprised the A7Siii does not have pixel shift. Maybe due tom its release date. However the FX3 and ZV-E1 (same sensor) has it. 

OP was talking about the A7S mark I, not the mark III.

[Pieter]

2 hours ago, FunWithCameras said:

OP was talking about the A7S mark I, not the mark III.

Did you even read OP's post and the topic title?

On 10/8/2024 at 8:46 PM, avalon said:

I got intrigued by pixel shift technology offering x4 higher resolution which unfortunally this feature isn't in Sony A7s III despite being recently released and being really expensive. Why it doesn't have this feature which ridiculous resolution models have it??

 

[avalon]

I think there is deliberate by camera manufacturers especially Canon deliberately stunting technological progress and not adding the best available technologies to have slower gradual evolution to keep profits flowing. AKA planned obsolescence. That's why I come respect bold and  innovation driven manufacturers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence

Edited November 20, 2024 by avalon