A7r finicky?

[Yorg]

I keep hearing about the  A7r requiring a more exacting approach in order to make use of the extra resolution.

No doubt this is true for the photos where the extra resolution will actually be used - say as large prints.

However, as I understand it, a little shake that would show up in an A7r capture for a large print would be no more visible in a smaller print than in a lower resolution - say 24mpx A7 - if magnifications / enlargements were identical.

Would this be a correct understanding?

 

 

[Vivek]

No.

 

Both the A7 and the A7r (shutter) suck when it comes to this.  It is the build quality and the 3rd rate shutter in them.  Things have improved on the A7s and the A7 II.

[addicted2light]

No.

 

Both the A7 and the A7r (shutter) suck when it comes to this.  It is the build quality and the 3rd rate shutter in them.  Things have improved on the A7s and the A7 II.

 

But activating the optional electronic first curtain on the A7 should't help?

[Vivek]

With the EFCS, the A7 still sounds very loud and the vibration still affects.  I notice the difference only after the A7s. It is a huge difference.  Still, the shutter sound (even on the A7s with its EFCS on and the silent mode off) is louder than many DSLRs. 

 

My next Sony FE cameera will have to have a global shutter.  Nothing else will make me open my wallet

 ( I have spent a lot already).

[addicted2light]

Thanks for the clarification. I was thinking of buying an A7 (instead of an A7r) waiting for the new hi-res body, but this will probably keep me off.

[bwana]

I have both the A7R and A7S.  The electronic 1st shutter in the A7S is nice.  Silent shooting drops the image quality and doesn't work for a fair number of camera settings.  Its low light performance is the phenomenal!

 

I like the A7R for its resolution but you do have to keep it solidly held or mounted to get that resolution.  If you're used to a high resolution camera you will have no problems.

 

As for shutter noise; all my Canon cameras are at least as noisy.

[Rupp2015]

I have both the a7r and now the a7ii. I have been a Canon shooter for (well) ever. Sometimes I would prefer to carry a smaller camera. I was totally un-wowed by the a7r, which I found to be exceptionally finicky. I really don't know why I bought the a7ii. I am struggling to master the OS of the new camera, and the use of additional memory buttons (which in theory should be good). So far, I have been disappointed with all of the lenses except the 55mm Zeiss. I am heading to NOLA for a vacation next week and wonder if I dare trust the a7ii as a carry camera. The 1Dx may be a brick, but it's a pretty dependable brick. 

 

Your understanding of the results from the a74 is in line with my experience. I'll report back on the a7ii.

[Austerror]

Did I read somewhere that the A7R does not have EFCS? But it has no mirror to be flipping.

 

Also, being in a smaller body, I would expect the shutter to be louder. There is less camera to absorb the noise the camera makes.

 

How does the A7 series noise compare to the old Minolta 5D?  Mine was always super loud.

[nippa]

I hate the shutter shake with my Olympus camera and have always put it down to the IBIS type system where the sensor is held in an electro magnetic field.

I've never had any problem with the lens stabilisation of Lumix lenses and I've never had a hint of it with my A7 even when the Electronic Curtain is OFF.

 

When Sony announced in-Body Stabilisation I took a deep breath

[Austerror]

Sony has been doing in body stabilisation for a long long time.  Minolta started it.

 

As far as I know, the A7 mk2 can have it turned off if the user wants. I know I can turn it off on my 5D and A99.

[Mark Galer]

The A7R is absolutely fine when you double your normal shutter speed when shooting hand-held.

If you are used to shooting Aperture Priority switch to Manual Mode with Auto ISO. This allows you to shoot with a shutter speed of your own choosing, e.g. 1/125 when using the 55mm

News of shutter shake on this camera have been grossly exaggerated. You will not experience it shooting hand-held and only with certain focal length lenses at certain shutter speeds when the camera is mounted on a tripod. I have never experienced the problem because the camera is only on my tripod when using wide-angle lenses.

[Vivek]

You are doing sony and its users no favor by defending the A7r. The current market value of the A7r is better attestment than what you claim.

 

Anyway, we are only months away from an overdue replacement. Hopefully, sony will not use a plastic mount and the shutter be better dampened (can't get worse, can it?).

[Austerror]

How is what Mark is saying bad for Sony and its users?

 

He makes a suggestion about minimising the shutter shake of the A7r and also points out he has never seen the problem himself.

 

My understanding is that this is a positive thing.

[Max the Dog]

Vivek - you're wrong.  The A7 doesn't have the A7r shutter issue.    It is only the A7r that lack EFCS and thus has an issue between 1/30th - 1/200th and especially with telephoto lenses.   

 

 

 

 

No.

 

Both the A7 and the A7r (shutter) suck when it comes to this.  It is the build quality and the 3rd rate shutter in them.  Things have improved on the A7s and the A7 II.

[Max the Dog]

I can live with and can mitigate shutter shock.  Sony's larger 2 problems are color issues due to the 11+7 bit lossy "RAW" algorithm that Sony uses and the astigmatism and 20% resolution loss due to the sensor glass thickness.  Both of those are non-starters for any more Sony purchases.   https://sonyvnikon.wordpress.com/

[Vivek]

Vivek - you're wrong.  The A7 doesn't have the A7r shutter issue.    It is only the A7r that lack EFCS and thus has an issue between 1/30th - 1/200th and especially with telephoto lenses.   

Max, I have/use the A7/7r/7s.  I think I know what I am talking about from actual use.

[Vivek]

How is what Mark is saying bad for Sony and its users?

 

He makes a suggestion about minimising the shutter shake of the A7r and also points out he has never seen the problem himself.

 

My understanding is that this is a positive thing.

 

 

Soon, we will have an "upgrade" for the A7r as the rumor site says. 

 

Hopefully, it will have a real metal mount and not the plastic one in the A7 or the A7r.

 

It is not just the shutter, it is the pathetic build quality that makes the problem real big.

[Max the Dog]

You're alone in your opinion.   Unless you can show someone reputable documenting the issue for something other than the A7r. 

 

Max, I have/use the A7/7r/7s.  I think I know what I am talking about from actual use.

[Vivek]

You're alone in your opinion.   Unless you can show someone reputable documenting the issue for something other than the A7r. 

I will become a Sony ambassador and opine.  Will that then count , in your opinion?

[Austerror]

I can live with and can mitigate shutter shock.  Sony's larger 2 problems are color issues due to the 11+7 bit lossy "RAW" algorithm that Sony uses and the astigmatism and 20% resolution loss due to the sensor glass thickness.  Both of those are non-starters for any more Sony purchases.   https://sonyvnikon.wordpress.com/

 

Max, do you have a reference for this thick glass other than your own website?  I'd like to see evidence of this. I did a quick search around the Internet and didn't find anything. I have often wondered how thick these protective layers are. 

 

EDIT:

 

I found this:

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2015/01/a-thinner-sensor-stack

 

Seems native lenses don't really improve with a thinner sensor stack, infact one measure was worse. The differences however were small enough to be within the margin of error. The Leica does a little. But it is not a huge difference.

[Max the Dog]

Do you have a source ?  

 

I will become a Sony ambassador and opine.  Will that then count , in your opinion?

[Max the Dog]

Yes

 

http://diglloyd.com/prem/s/MSI/publish/rayAngle-filterStack.html

 

http://www.getdpi.com/forum/sony/53215-sensor-stack-conversion-a7-a7r-help-rf-wa.html

 

http://www.kolarivision.com/thinfilterconversion.html

 

And Roger's testing that you found already

 

The main point - Sony isn't optimized to date. 

 

 

Max, do you have a reference for this thick glass other than your own website?  I'd like to see evidence of this. I did a quick search around the Internet and didn't find anything. I have often wondered how thick these protective layers are. 

 

EDIT:

 

I found this:

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2015/01/a-thinner-sensor-stack

 

Seems native lenses don't really improve with a thinner sensor stack, infact one measure was worse. The differences however were small enough to be within the margin of error. The Leica does a little. But it is not a huge difference.

[Guest all8]

I can live with and can mitigate shutter shock.  Sony's larger 2 problems are color issues due to the 11+7 bit lossy "RAW" algorithm that Sony uses and the astigmatism and 20% resolution loss due to the sensor glass thickness.  Both of those are non-starters for any more Sony purchases.   https://sonyvnikon.wordpress.com/

 

Do you have the lens cap on in your profile picture?

[Jan Anne]

When the D800E came out the net was full with stories that it wasn't usable with its 36MP and lack of alias filter, as I was used to 12MP full frame cameras (D700 and later D3s) it was indeed a bit of a learning curve to master but managed to do so after only a few outings, even at very low shutter speeds.

 

When the a7R came out the same stories arose on the net which I bravely ignored thinking I could manage the little beast, sadly I couldn't. I simply lacked the skills to fully master it and get predictable results at low shutter speeds, the low weight in combination with the shuttershock and not enough ISO range to compensate was too much to handle. On top of that it wasn't very kind to some of my lenses, needles to say I started to regret not buying the Nikon Df or even the a7 for that matter.

 

Luckily Sony announced the amazing a7S when I was about to acknowledge my mistake and cut my losses, so after a few years of 36MP fun I'm back to 12MP with even crazier ISO performance than I was used to with my beloved D3s. Extra bonus is the better built, EFCS and better performance with legacy lenses so all in all I can honestly say that I now own the perfect camera for my shooting style (which is mainly shooting in low light conditions with fast or wide lenses).

 

So long story short, if you shoot a lot in low light handheld avoid the a7R like the plague and get the a7 (II) or even better the a7S. Only get the a7R if you know what you're doing and can work with or around its limitations, even then I would advice to wait for the a7R MKII which will no doubt have the EFCS.

[Austerror]

Yes

 

http://diglloyd.com/prem/s/MSI/publish/rayAngle-filterStack.html

 

http://www.getdpi.com/forum/sony/53215-sensor-stack-conversion-a7-a7r-help-rf-wa.html

 

http://www.kolarivision.com/thinfilterconversion.html

 

And Roger's testing that you found already

 

The main point - Sony isn't optimized to date. 

Everyone else seems to say that with Native lenses the sensor stack reduction makes very little or zero difference.  

 

Here is a quote from Kolarivision:

Now, you might be wondering how this modification impacts performance with the original Sony lenses.  Luckily we have not seen a significant change in performance with lenses designed for the A7-series cameras and Roger at LensRentals has independantly run his own tests on a modified A7r and seen the same thing.

 

I would expect that lenses not designed for the e-mount to not perform as well as lenses that are designed for e-mount.  It does not seem unreasonable. I expect the reverse would be similar.  If it were possible to put an e-mount lens on a Leica, I would not be surprised to see it perform worse.