A7R II and 70-400 G SSM II for bird shooting; LA-EA4 or LA-EA3?

[SpanishFlyer]

Dear friends,

 

I have now had the 70-400 and the LA-EA4 adapter for more than two months and have managed to cope with erratic focusing on garden birds somehow or other. One great thing using this adapter is that the spot focusing is much smaller than the standard one and let's you pinpoint be birds head more precisely and that I love. With the standard 70-200 f4 I could focus much quicker, but many times it either focused on a branch or the legs and body, leaving the head and eyes out of focus.

 

Lately however I've seen many  comments about how much better the simpler LA-EA3 works with the newish A7RII, since it used all the more than 300 focus points plus other benefits that the camera could use on these lenses. The thing is I purchased the EA3 and tried it as soon as I laid my hands on it. Shooting garden birds from a feeder and at 400 mm (which is what I mostly do), and at about 5 m (16 feet) distance, I immediately noticed that focusing was much harder, sluggish and the lens kept hunting backwards and forwards most of the time. I have the camera set for obvious reasons at spot focus small, so I guess the 300 or so remaining focus points do nothing to help me focus, so I asked myself what was the point.... I then tried all sorts of settings to see if I could improve the focusing, even trying phase and contrast detect (contrast being a NO-NO), so now I find myself at a crossroads where I' wondering if I should return the EA3 or try and follow your suggestions on how to improve the focus with it. One thing is VERY clear; if I reinstall the LA-EA4, in the case I'm explaining here, it seems almost instant focus compared to the EA3.

 

What do you suggest I do? I only have this zoom lens that fits both my adapters, since all my other lenses are FE mount and right now I have run out of ideas.... Have read all that Brian Smith says about adapters and was one of the main reasons for making this purchase (http://briansmith.com/sony-a7-a7r-lens-mount-adapters/)

 

Best regards,

 

Spanish Flyer

 

PS.: The camera already has the 3.2.0 firmware

[Gilgenberg]

sorry.......i have no experience with LAEA3 and A7rII...

 

but i have LA-EA4 and A7S and i can say focussing with my sigma 105mm macro HSM OS does instantly lock...so what can be better?

 

if you say you have a very good focussing result with LAEA4 so let the la-ea3 go

[Golem]

Since the birds are at or near a garden

bird feeder, why not just focus manually.

[morphf]

i don't know about the G1, is it ssm or screw driven ?

 

on the a7ii, a7rii and a7sii the rue is simple.

 

is the lens screw driven, then you use la-ea4 with autofocus motor.

(in this version is a translucent mirror and you loose ⅓ of light and only have 17 af points)

 

if the lens is ssm use the la-ea3, this is much faster and have all the benefits of all the autofocus points.

[SpanishFlyer]

Hi morphf, 

My 70-400 is the latest G SSM II and as I say, the focusing (in this particular case of garden birds @ 400mm and reasonably short distances), I need to focus on the birds head to get sharp eyes and for that I must chose the center point (small) focus point, meaning that I don't get the benefits of all the more than 300 focusing points and the shallow depth of field @ 400 mm makes it almost impossible to get the whole bird in focus; this means as far as I know that the LA-EA4 in reality works much better, focusing much faster than the LA-EA3. I guess that for general photography, being able to use all the goodies that the A7R2 has, will make the purchase of the LA-EA3 worth my while, but for this case shooting small critters at relatively short distances, the bulkier LA-EA4 with its own focusing system is faster and doesn't hunt half as much. This clearly means that the E mount is still lacking of a good 300 mm f/2.8 if it tries to compete with Nikon (which I had) or Canon. The use of the 70-400 G SSM is not good enough with either adapters, so my guess is that I will have to wait till they come out with something of that sort

 

By the way, Golem, in my case and even with the focus peaking (that helps...), since I wear glasses, it makes it too difficult for me to focus on such small and constantly moving critters; only the Robin tends to stay still long enough to be able to focus manually, but that's not good enough

 

Thanks a lot for your responses, but being accustomed to my ex- D4S and the 300 f/2.8 VRII, I'm now failing too many good shots to be happy with my equipment change

Spanish Flyer

[nathan_h]

Definitely use the LAEA4. Sounds like the perfect solution for you.

[SpanishFlyer]

Thanks nathan_h,

 

That's what I'm doing at the moment, but it is not a solution for bird shooting; as I mentioned before, my ex- D4s and Nikkor 300 mm f/2.8 VR II was a charm, not even worth comparing...

 

Just hope Sony come out with the 300 f2.8 they already have in A mount for the FE, even though that 300 glass cannot compete with Nikkor or Canon, but at least it will be fast focusing (I hope)...

 

Thanks,

 

Spanish Flyer

[jpol]

HI Spanish flyer

I want to do exactly the same thing as you, photographing birds and animals; I last week bought also the 40-700 G2 lens with the LA-EA3 adapter for my A7RII.

I wanted to stay with Sony and not go for Tamron/Sigma/Canon/Nikon lenses. 

 

1) I would like to check with you whether you have the same effect that I have using this A-mount lens (all my other lenses are FE lenses, so difficult to compare):

when I AF focus and hold the shutter halfway, my focus motor makes clacking/clicking sound, you can clearly hear it certainly when it is hunting.

Do you have a similar sound?

I need to take a decision to possibly return the lens and adapter.

 

2) regarding focusing on bird's eyes, yes I have similar problems certainly if there are branches close by and the lens jumps to focus on the branch iso bird.

I use spot focus on a tripot/monopot. Not all shots are a hit, but half of them usually are OK. I sometimes use crop giving me a 600mm and getting even closer.

Regarding LA-EA4, I haven't bought that one because I also read Brian Smith's article (you referred to in your first post) and decided to go for the LEA3.

[SpanishFlyer]

Hi jpol,

 

I agree with you, I also prefer to stick with same brand lenses (Sony) and the 70-400 G2 works fine with the adapter you have; I have noticed however (to my surprise), that my LAEA4 , that has its own focusing system works MUCH better in low light conditions; I have seen many mentioning that the LAEA3 is better since it allows the camera's magnificent focus system to do the job, but as I mentioned earlier, since I use spot metering/focusing, in this case, all the goodness of our revolutionary A7R2 focusing system is limited to just the center point, making it worthless in our common case of shooting birds. The main problem I find with this otherwise great lens is that the lack of luminosity badly hampers focusing, specially when using its full 400mm; for that reason I'm right now searching in eBay for a used 300mm f/2.8 (probably Minolta SSM 300 f2.8) or similar, since the Sony 300 f/2.8 has a price meant for big pockets...

 

About 1) My 70-400 G2 lens only makes a very subtle "whizzing" sound when focusing, no clacking/clicking sound... Don't want to worry you because it is my belief that the noise you hear is when the camera decides its time to clean the sensor as you switch off, so then it certainly makes a very disturbing sound that also bothered me when I first used it.

 

point 2)  I also use the smallest spot focusing and almost at all times on a tripod; problem is that even then, what you want to focus is not what the camera decides... I wish the focus point would be half the size it has now. But the only solution in most cases is to close the "f" to an 8 or more, even f/11, in order to get that bit of extra depth of field.... Problem is that since you also want to have the shutter speed as high as possible 1/500 or more, then you are left with only one choice and that is rise the ISO, which brings only bad images due to the added noise; I have set my ISO to Auto and fixed between 100 and 4000.

 

My other option is to use my Sony flash in TTL to add that much needed extra light (I use Phottix ODIN wireless system to have the flash off camera); funnily enough I find that most birds don't mind that "artificial sudden lightning"  just turn their heads looking at the flash, and that is when you get a great opportunity for a second killer shot.

 

Good luck, and comment any other issues or findings that you might encounter since at least I will be listening...

 

Spanish Flyer 

[danmleephoto]

I have this exact set up - I use the 4 and it works well.

[jpol]

Hi Spanish Flyer

Thank you for the feedback.

I got feedback in another post on the same topic (see http://www.sonyalphaforum.com/topic/4850-those-of-you-who-own-sony-70-400-g2-lens-i-need-your-assistance/)

The whizzing sound (I call it clacking) seems to come from the F/stop diafragma motor. The disturbing sound when camera closes down is something I noticed as well;

was a bit disturbing at first indeed.

I will try to return the adapter + lens since I am not happy with the result.

 

Regarding moving in F stops and needing to increase ISO in lower light is indeed not easy to manage. Your idea about flash is very good, never did that because didn't

want to disturb the birds. You comments are exactly the ones I have. Using only spot focus while the A7RII has such capabilities is indeed really a shame.

 

I will try to return lens + adapter and if not possible need to live with it.

 

On the other hand is there an alternative within Sony FE, only the 70-200 F/4 or the new 70-200 F/2.8 and using teleconverters x2 or x1.4.

What is your opinion about this?

[Mark K]

Having just tried my G1 70-400 on A7rII, I simply cannot conclude the AF is great. I would rather say OK. Maybe I need to take the baby out in the field

[DanArt]

FTLOGsh

 

1. The LAE3 adapter is for lens that features there own tracking system. The LAE4 is for earlier lens without AF tracking system It adds a couple of a focusing points so the lens is able to use AF system. Not the best focusing system but it gives an older lens more usage I believe. So your not getting the full potential of the SSM II with the LAE4. I thought that too but then I realize why does the LAE4 have a huge thing on it.

 

2. The SSM II 70-400 ( which I use for runway walking type fashion and people mostly ) is meant to be used in day time

with it's tracking system. If it is night time and there is no difference in the spot ( black and white contrast area ) you will

not be able to focus fast at all. I have been shooting the moon a lot lately with it via a 2 X adapter ( not the sony official one ).

 

3. The SSM II if you have steady shot enabled you need to disabled it. Especially when focusing on fast moving targets

like birds. Steady shots are for slow moving targets like people walking.

 

4. If your like me shooting the moon you should disable the Steady shot and manual focus with a fixed position.. Because the

2X does not focus proprely at all past 100mm and Steady shot is constantly vibrating.

 

5. The focusing system in darkness ( like a club ) is useless without a division of light source. You need to have a light source.

in order for AF to function.

 

6. The SSM II do not have all of it's capabilties unlocked for the A7RII. You can see this by the lack of other focusing options.

You can follow a target and track it. This will allows the lens to AF which is very fast.

 

7. A7RII has two options to increase focusing speed. I have no idea which one is for what. However I have both of them on 24/7 which is what is allowing for the lens for AF like crazy.

 

So you need to

 

A. Get the LAE3 adapter

B. Try focusing without steady shot on

C. Turn on all if not any options to increase AF speed. Which you will see like crazy when they are turned on.

 

I hope this is somewhat helpful and is based on my experience with this camera I currently own

[Guest Jaf-Photo]

It is well known that the LA-EA3 is slow with most lenses and that the LA-EA4 is faster but clunky. The LA-EA4 has its own PDAF module and therefore works similarly on all lenses regardless of being SSM, SAM or screwdrive.

 

If you want good operation with adapted lenses to Sony E cameras, your best option is adapting (Canon) EF mount lenses with a Metabones smart adapter or Sigma MC-11 adapter.

 

The Sony LA-EA adapters are holdover solutions which allow you to use Sony A Mount lenses on E Mount cameras but with significant limitations. They're certainly not adequate for bird photography.

 

All this is common knowledge, so I don't know why you're muddying the waters here.

[DanArt]

I am not muddying the waters.

 

I am constantly a using the SSM II with a LAE3 adapater and it is amazing. Saying the SSM II A-mount 70mm-400mm is slow is a sponser lie.

 

The LAE4 loses light compared to the LAE3

The LAE4 is meant for the earlier screw type Minlonta lens to prolong there life.

The LAE4 also adds AF functions to some of these lens.

 

I admit I am unable to focus without a difference in light but it gets the job done.

I admit when in AF in center ( not area ) mode the AF/MF buttons on the camera ( not the lens ) do not work the same way ).

I admit  other modes such as tracking does not function with this lens. Unless there is a mode I am missing.

 

However this lens is like godsmack in my hands. It does a great deal of what I need it to do. I haven't heard or read anything at all in comparison. With the A7RII I love the most is the portability of it all and the speed. Note I am using an A7RII that is in Firmware 1.0.

 

What kind of birds are we talking about? .

[Guest Jaf-Photo]

This is nuts.

 

With FW 1.0 the A7R2 won't even allow hybrid AF when you adapt the 70-400 with LA-EA3. It only allows contrast AF, which by definition is slow. Even if you do update the firmware, the lens can only use a fraction of the hybrid AF points.

 

If you only use the center focusing point as you indicate, the LA-EA4 would be faster and more accurate in shifting light, simply because it has as a robust PDAF module.

 

The SAL70400GII is $2200 lens. The A7RII cost $3200 until recently. The LA-EA3 costs $200. So basically, it's a $5500 camera kit but you're getting the AF functionality of a $500 camera.

 

If you own the SAL70400GII but only use it adapted on an E Mount camera, it's clear as day that you should sell it and buy the native E-Mount version. (Alternatively, you could buy an A-Mount camera with good AF like the A77II.) Otherwise you're just wasting the capacity of the camera and the lens.

[DanArt]

If I could be convinced the 100-400 does a better job and AF with the 2X. Maybe I would upgrade. So far I am hearing problems. However just walking around town with the 70mm is decent enough distance between me and most subjects even is tight spaces

and allow me to zoom when I see something that I need to zoom in on. .

 

Thank you for sharing that infomation about the FW1.0 but I do not mind the AF being limited to situations involving a division of light. I do not want to update the FW1.0 because of the "Star Eater issue" encountered due to correcting another issue. Yes it is preventing me from using RAW over the ARW but it is also ensures me I have a camera that is %100 multiple purpose.

 

I will admit the AF was slow out of the box until I changed two seperate settings. Again there are settings in the camera you have to change in order to speed up the AF. Using the camera without steady shot also makes a difference. We are talking about a day with light outside with birds flying around.

 

I do not only use center focusing. I use center focusing because if there is multiple-targets and your only after one target you would want that specific target. I use the area targeting most of the times but I have one target I want to keep centered ( a target I am following ) that is why I would keep it on center. It really depends on the stiuation.

I understand other functions of the direct mounts without adapters is ideally better. However I have a rule. Whatever was around out of the box is the current situation. Meaning even if SONY or another company released a new version. I should not give into consumerism. The same impluse buying and selling I am seeing constantly.

 

I will admit if I was given a test ride. Maybe at a camaera shop or trade meet up if they will let me. Then I will make a switch. That is what I am admiting. If I could test a 100-400mm or even a sigma lens and see a comparison in focus, speed, frigning ( which I prefer not to deal with ) I would make a decision. or FW1.0 of course.

 

Same with FW1.0 v. FWXX. I would need to see results first hand. So far I am going by what I am reading. Like how magically one lens that was weather proof is no longer weather proof when another lens was released. That makes no sense???

[Guest Jaf-Photo]

Nope, it just sounds blinkered, impractical and a waste of good money. Fair enough if it makes you happy, but don't try to get others to follow.