A7RM3 focus settings for birds in flight

[johnrsims43]

I have a Sony a7RM3 and the Sony FE100-400 GM lens. I have been photographing birds for a few months now, and have tried several different setting. I'm currently using "Lock on - Expanding Flexible spot" as recommended by Mark Galer, a Sony Global Imaging Ambassador. I do often get sharp results, but not as often as I would like. Mark makes his recommendations on Youtube:

, but he is not photographing birds in flight. I'm wondering if anyone here has experience with birds in flight, and what they have found works best.

 

Thanks,

John

[LiveShots]

What aperture/shutter speed are you using?

[johnrsims43]

Camera is set to:

Aperture preferred, usually f7.1 Occasionally f8.0

ISO - Auto

Minimum Shutter speed 1/focal length *1/4. so, at full zoom (400mm) shutter speed is 1/1600. Occasionally I set minimum shutter speed to 1/2000

 

I'm fairly sure the "magic" is in the Auto focus settings. In the absence of other advice I will next try "Lock on - wide". I'm told the auto focus will find anything moving, and "latch" on to it. "Wide" suggesting you do not have to have the bird centered in the frame. I've also just changed the priority in continuous focus to "Auto Focus" rather than Balanced. This might help, but do not really know.

[Guest Jaf-Photo]

In my experience, Sony cameras can pick up and track birds with AF-C Wide. The only exception is if They're flying among trees, then the AF is more likely to pick up the trees.

[johnrsims43]

Thanks Jaf-Photo. Do you mean "Wide", or "Lock on Wide"? I will check later today if "Wide" does track moving objects, but if so, I wonder what the difference is vs "Lock on Wide".

[tinplater]

I think the "lock on" feature is a little confusing...it, to my way of thinking, remembers the object you locked onto so if another object comes in front, it will remember the locked subject and refocus on it when it reappears.  I have found using your settings but choosing WIDE FOCUS AREA (for anything that moves is a way to remember) and continuous focus.  Keep shutter (or other assigned button) halfway depressed once you have focus and the little green focus squares will stay on your subject.  I also use silent shooting, continuous shooting mid.  I think you will be impressed with how quickly and accurately focus is accomplished, essentially almost instantly.  The only problem I have is when the focus jumps to something else, causing one to have to recapture the subject.  Finally practice holding your camera/lens as stable as possible.  At 400mm, even with fast shutter speeds and IS it is easy to have camera movement blur a picture.  This is identifiable when nothing in the image is in sharp focus.

[johnrsims43]

Thank you tinplater!

 

That's good to know about the "lock on". I intend to test both "lock on wide" and "wide" to see if there is any difference. I guess focus might be a bit slower with "lock on" if the camera is watching for other objects, but otherwise perhaps no penalty, and I suppose something does occasionally come between the bird and the camera, so could be worth it. Also good tip "when nothing in the image is in sharp focus". I've seen that:-)

[LiveShots]

The 'Lock-On' is determined by the Tracking Sensitivity and may need some tweaking:

 

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[johnrsims43]

Thank you Liveshots.

I currently have that set to 3/Standard. I can see where it might be worthwhile to set that at 1/locked on, as there may well be multiple birds in the sky, or the bird may fly lower and have trees./etc.. in the background, but for now will keep at "3", as I do not want to change too many variable at the same time:-) One question does arise. With multiple birds in the frame, does the auto focus favor one area over another? Center vs edge of the frame?

Thanks again.

[LiveShots]

Good question; I honestly don't know… I would have thought it would latch on to the closest with maybe some priority toward the center of the frame… might be worth experimenting with that. I plan to take some photos at a race next weekend (lots of runners) so maybe I will do some tests in Wide mode to see who it picks up…

[Guest Jaf-Photo]

No, just the AF-C and Wide. As long as you have a clear field of view, it should pick out flying birds against the background.

 

Lock on is more useful if you want to track, say, a person or a car for an extended period of time. The camera will memorise their signature and try to lock on to them when they're in the frame.

 

For birds it's not always useful and it doesn't necessarily do a better job than plain AF-C.

 

If your bird is in a messy environment such and branches or reeds you may even have to revert back to the center focus spot.

 

That said, I'm not a birder I just photograph birds from time to time for fun or practice.

[johnrsims43]

Thanks to all for your advice and suggestions.

 

800 photographs later I believe the following to be true (at least for me). This applies to birds in flight only, not stationary or perched.

Wide vs Lock on Wide - very little difference in accuracy of the focus, or the sharpness of the photograph. One advantage to "Lock on" is the box indicating focus area. This is a slight help as opposed to the multiple small boxes around the target.

One disadvantage to "Wide", is that on a windy day, a lot of stuff is 'in motions", and it is very likely your bird will not be the chosen target. Bit of an argument for center focus, or one of the other location specific modes.

Biggest help is brighter light, and higher contrast. Bird with grass/trees in the background is going to be difficult, especially without good light.

If you can get the bird in the center of the frame, with center focus, you will likely get the best results. Since I tend to shoot at max zoom, this is a challenge.

My technique needs improvement. I nearly always soot at max zoom (400mm), and want the target to (more or less) fill the frame. I need to improve on my tracking.

I likely need to increase the shutter speed. Some of my problem is due to target/camera movement.

This has been a good exercise for me, and helps me appreciate the need to switch focus mode as situation dictates. For totally unpredictable situations, when your target will not have trees/grass in the background, use Wide. Either Lock on, or not. If you can anticipate the bird (hawks can be seen coming from a distance), switch to "center" or "Expandable flexible spot" focus. For me I would use "Lock on", just because of the box.

Thanks again.

[Guest Jaf-Photo]

The birders I know shoot wide then crop to fill the frame. It's too ambitious to expect to frame a close focus shot every time. They usually have lower resolution Canon or Nikon cameras so you should be fine cropping on the A7R3.

 

One benefit of using AF-C Wide is that it uses less algorithms and processing. So focus is snappier and more fluid. Lock-on, face recognition etc can cause a bit of lag or choppiness. So, It's a good idea to start with plain AF-C Wide if that works. Every Sony camera is a bit different in how it does AF so the best thing is to try everything with every setting and then pick the ones that works for you.

[johnrsims43]

Jaf-Photo,

Thanks much for your comments. I had not considered face recognition. I do have my "bird settings" programmed into on of the memory slots, and would not have thought to turn it off when storing those settings. I would have turned in on for the "general case" prior to customizing for birds, so it would have been left that way prior to storing in memory. At this point I think I have tried most combinations of the various settings, and for now (as you recommend) will settle on either "AF-C Wide" or "AF-C Center". It's easy enough to switch since this option is programmed into one of the custom buttons.

Thanks again for sharing your perspective.

[Guest Jaf-Photo]

Best of luck. Birders are among the most dedicated photographers I know. Never quite caught the bug though.

[johnrsims43]

Jaf-Photo,

I went back out today to test my strategy, and am now leaning more toward "AF-C Wide", unless the bird lands or takes a perch. I might even change from "center" to "Flexible spot " for those situation where there are nearby leaves/branches/etc.... For what  it's worth, I believe turning off face recognition and "lock on" did improve the speed (and accuracy) of focus capture. However, there was one more variable I through into the pot, just to confuse the issues - I opened the aperture to max. I went back and reviewed the images that I felt were "soft", and most were in low(ish) light situations - overcast, no direct sunlight, with low contrast. I had set aperture to f7.1 or f8 thinking improved DOF would be an advantage, but am now guessing that may not be the case. In any case I have found the "AF-C Wide" does work really well for birds in flight, and as you suggested holding target in the center of the frame at 400MM may not be realistic.

Thanks again,

John

[Guest Jaf-Photo]

There's been issues with Sony's stop-down focusing. When you select a higher f-number the aperture stops down while focusing, meaning less light and slower focus. Sony has had a few different iterations of this issue with different firmware versions. You can probably look around on forums to find the optimum settings for your use.

[johnrsims43]

Thanks Jaf.

I did search around a bit for the "Stop down focus" issue, but mostly found discussions from 2016. This seems to have been a problem for studio settings (not sure if it still is), and  I've not noticed the camera stopping down to focus, but not sure if I would notice since I "guess" ISO would kick in to lighten the EVF. I'll "stay tuned" for this issue, but for now I'm a happy camper.

Thanks again.

John

[sixzeiss]

You might as well shoot that lens wide open (f5.6 @ 400mm IIRC), the AF system needs all the contrast/light it can get. With birds, DOF is less important than getting precise focus on the feathers around the eye/head - otherwise its never going to look good.

 

For birds in flight, AF-C Zone or Wide is OK, however using the large square can help you get the precise focus you will eventually crave! For birds sitting still I use Manual Focus, its the only way to get precise focus.

 

Also set the Drive Mode to Continuous, you really need that. Generally one of two from the burst will be perfect.

[Guest Jaf-Photo]

Like 6zeiss says, wide aperture may give you better focus. The stop down focus is fast and quiet so you'll only notice if you look for it.

 

The studio discussion is mainly because stop down focus is a pain if you shoot with strobes. Sony did a firmware fix for A7R2 but as I understand it may have reintroduced the issue in the A7R3. I'm not following the minutiae of that, though because I use A99II.

[johnrsims43]

sixzeiss and Jaf,

Thanks for your guidance. As mentioned earlier I had opened aperture to "max", but also made other changes as well, so not possible for me to attribute improvements to which change. Using AF-C Wide, while turning off: face recognition, Lock On, and "expand flexible spot" seemed to really improve the speed of focus capture, and these three items plus wide open aperture taken in total have made a big difference to the speed of acquisition, and sharpness of focus. I like the idea of manual focus for stationary birds, but do find the "flexible spot (s)" to allow me to isolate the bird to the extend that auto focus works very well. Manual is certainly a "back up" that will deal with problematic situations, and I have taken your advice to turn peaking down to low, and color red. I've also customized a button to magnify, and find that very useful.

Great forum - very helpful.

Thanks!

 

[johnrsims43]

Oops, double post. I see "edit", but I do not see "delete"?

[JamesD]

John, I know it's been over a year, but I'm new to the A7RM3 and am going through the same process you went through. I'm curious where you finally landed for BIF's. I was a little confused by this comment, "Using AF-C Wide, while turning off: face recognition, Lock On, and "expand flexible spot" seemed to really improve the speed of focus capture". I get that you turned off face recognition and Lock-on, but are you saying you deselected expanded flexible spot, or that you are using expandable spot as your preferred AF area for BIF's.  

OT, I worked in SV for 35 years and formed my original "Birding addiction" at shoreline and The Baylands. I do miss it. As close to shooting in a zoo without being is a zoo or in Florida, as you can get.

Cheers!  Jim

[johnrsims43]

Hi Jim,

Yes, I also deselect expanded flexible spot. I "might" use expanded flexible spot if the bird is stationary and there are too many distractions (leaves moving in the wind for instance), that causes the focus to pick up (and focus on) movement from other than my intended target, but it is rare that I have time to make this change  before the bird moves on. Quicker to just go to manual. Using "wide", If the bird is "In the air", the camera will pick it out, track it, and focus correctly. I do well to get the bird in the frame, without trying to also move the flexible spot to the bird:-)

I also visit the SFO Bay Trail often. Nearly always cool, and normally several targets to capture. I'm still fairly new to birds, so just now beginning to realize how the seasonal changes affect the birds.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

John

Edited August 10, 2019 by johnrsims43

[JamesD]

Thanks for the reply John. Can I assume you keep your perched birds settings in one MR and BIF settings in another, or do you use a "custom shooting set"? Sometimes I long for the day when you had only single spot, center group and wide area. I'm constantly getting the feeling, when my results aren't as good as I'd like, that there is some setting in the myriad of choices we have, that I have wrong.  Not to mention figuring out how to switch rapidly from one scenario to the next. Birds are so impatient! They never wait for you to change your settings.? I shoot mostly in riparian settings now so I'm going from birds perched in the shade in trees, to BIF's against a blue sky in an instant. But, hey, that's what keeps it interesting.