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Thinking of building a kit of MF lenses...thoughts?


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I have recently bought an A6000 having decided to build a kit with a FF A7-ish body and and APS-C one (A6000) and only MF lenses, either legacy or new ones. The plan was to use the same lenses for both bodies.

 

However, i recently read an article about how difficult it is to use MF lenses in general with new digital bodies using focus peaking to achieve tack sharp images. In short the writer claimed that as long as you use a tripod and shoot in somewhat controlled conditions it is achievable to have nice shots. On the other hand though, when time is not a luxury you have and you shoot handheld then the "keepers" number falls dramatically. Apparently due to the poorer contrast etc of the older lenses combined with the shortcomings of the focus peaking feaure in general what looks to be in focus actually is not etc. At least it is not when back home you see the shots on the PC when it will be too late anyway.

 

I already own a couple of Pentax legacy lenses and i have only ordered the relevant adapter to use so thus far i have not actually invested on my original plan apart from the A6000 which seems to be great in any case.

 

But, if there is truth in the claim of the writer then that is something that i must seriously consider before i invest in glass. I mean instead of a 85mm f1.4 Samyang i could get a 60mm f2.8 Sigma DN which is considered to be stellar on the A6000,has AF and its like half the price as well. The only downside would be that it is APS-C only.

 

So, to cut a long story short, and after seeing some great shots on the forum made by legacy glass my questions are:

  • Is focus peaking enough to shoot handheld and achieve tack sharp images?
  • How difficult is it?
  • Are there a special technique or specific settings involved?
  • Is the above feasable only with really good and contrasty glass?

If you could dedicate 10min to read the article here i believe my reluctance to go on with the plan will be better justified.

 

Thank you in advance for all the help.

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Guest all8

Please visit my 500px site, most of the photos there are tack sharp, and most are taken with Manual focus (even those from AF lenses), you don't need to use peaking but sometimes it helps.

 

Better to use Native lenses IMO, i.e. Zeiss Loxia. Sometimes adapted lenses just don't work out, but plenty here enjoy that ... 

 

Practice is everything.

 

Sorry I don't have 10 minutes ...

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............. ............ ....... .. ... ......... .. ...

 

So, to cut a long story short, and after seeing some great shots on the

forum made by legacy glass my questions are:

  • Is focus peaking enough to shoot handheld and achieve tack sharp images?
  • How difficult is it?
  • Are there a special technique or specific settings involved?
  • Is the above feasable only with really good and contrasty glass?

............. ............ ....... .. ... ......... .. ...

  

Bullet 1: Not too cool if you focus and then shoot all at the same f/stop.

  

Bullet 2: How difficult is it to use a flawed feature to get imperfect results ?

I guess that depends on your tolerance for wasted effort. 

 

Bullet 3: Yes there actually are techniques to markedly improve hit ratio. 

  

Bullet 4: No. The effect varies sorta somewhat between third rate lenses

and your fave crispy cruntchy lenses. Noticeable, if you perform a direct

A/B comparison, but in the real world no big deal.  

   

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

  

    

More about Bullets 1 [and 2]: 

 

Peaking is more or less like focusing on a real focusing screen [Nikon

F2, F3 etc], by your own eyesight, to judge the crispness of the image to

settle on the best focus. Peaking simply delivers that crispness in a new

and artificially enhanced appearance. It is perhaps less likely to cause

eye strain and commensurate degrading of your ability to judge just how

crisp and image looks. But in a short session, not long enuf to provoke  

any eye strain, the old and new make very similar demands on you for

your "best judgment call" as to crispness of details or edges.  

  

More about Bullet 3:

 

In the old method you rock focus to find where the edges or details look

most crisp. In the new [peaking] method you rock focus to observe how

the peaking lines appear to pass right thru objects, or how they move

over the surface of objects. As you rock focus, the peaking lines seem to

move toward you or away from you. You then hafta judge, applying what

you learned from practice sessions, where the most concentrated group

of peaking lines needs to land for proper focus. So there's two separate

judgment calls: [1] Just where IS that greatest density of peaking colors,

and [2] after you've identified that density, WHERE along the subject's

surface should you make it come to rest [via the focusing ring].

  

No more on Bullet 4 :-)   

   

  

######################################################## 

########################################################      

   

  

Above is my experience, my observations, narrowed down to only what

you ask in your 4 bulleted questions. Below is a coupla possibly useful

observations, worth mention, but not exactly what you directly asked. 

It's admittedly long winded and overly descriptive. Don't say nobody

warned you !

  

  

Peaking is useful as a graphic visualization of DoF. As you focus from

foreground to background you watch focus "sweep thru" the depth of a

scene in a manner that doesn't happen so boldly with the old focusing

screens, and never happens on those later "briteness priority" screens. 

Using DoF preview or a manual-aperture-set lens [M-Leica etc] you will   

see the depth of the peaking color area expand or shrink, fore-and-aft,

to include more stuff or less stuff, as you stop down or open up the iris.

Combine that with twirling the focus ring to push the whole thing toward

or away from you and, well, it's uhmmn .... it's better than Disney Land !  

   

[You could quit here. You don't HAFTA read the rest .... ]

   

Since peaking is NOT a fast binary "focus/not focus" indicator, you hafta

rock focus and render a judgment. This is often slower than just putting

the MF magnifier on a custom button and focusing the 10X image. The

10X image allows waaaay faster decisions than peaking does. IOW, 10X

focusing gives you hugely more obvious, and abrupt, visual focus. It's a

lot closer to that desirable binary "focus/not focus" indicator than peaking

can ever be. Often enuf, 10X magnified visual focusing really IS binary ! 

  

When you use mid-to-small apertures to get some DoF, cuz your scene

has some depth, and more importantly has points of interest at various

distances, then your critical exact focus point is pointless [irony intended].

You know that your chosen aperture renders approximate focus all thru

the depth of your scene. Focus peaking is great for this stuff, especially if

the priority point of interest is someone in motion within the scene, who is

changing distance as they move. You have the safety margin now to use

peaking. The priority subject will appear in critical focus, and points of less

importance will NOT look all fuzzed out, but will be rendered as secondary

due to their lack of really sooper critical crispiness.

  

Focus peaking is a blast in the immediately above context. It can have a

far better result than "tracking AF" ... and it's participatory fun. You don't

let any AF robot have all the fun. YOU do it, cuz it's so easy ... and fun !  

  

Awww-riteeee now laddz ! One more cool thing, not for viscerial thrills

but for important information, for visual awareness, via peaking. Let's say

you're working without much DoF, in a scene that has depth, but only a

single point of interest needs sharp focus, so more DoF would pointlessly

just rob you of a favorable off-tripod shutter speed. This describes many

interior scenes. IOW it's not some hypothetical but unlikely thing. So, you

wisely use the 10X MF aid to critically focus the priority point of interest.

You record a few versions of the shot. They all look great on the monitor. 

  

Later you see the same shots on your PC monitor, and you are reminded

that you were not merely focusing on the singular point of interest. You

were placing an entire scene-wide plane-of-sharp-focus right thru all the

stuff within view. And so it intersected stuff you didn't want competing with

your priory point of interest. Those random additional but accidental points

of sharp focus are quite noticeable. In a scene without much overall DoF

they really catch your eye.

 

If you had the peaking turned on, then after focusing at 10X and returning

to the full scene, the non-priority sharply focused distractions would have

been ratted out by brilliant dancing colors, instead of hiding in the small

monitor image while you checked for critical focus on the priority subject.

You always place a plane of focus into a scene. You don't simply single

out one thing to "focus on" .... well, maybe in your head, but the sensor is

NOT gonna read your mind ! Peaking graphically emphasizes all the other

objects that the plane-of-focus is also intersecting.

  

Peaking ain't all it's cracked up to be, and unfortunately that offends some

people and blinds them to some of peaking's secondary uses, at which it is

quite handy and up to the task :-)

 

And, kun - grad - yew - lay - shuns !!! Wow ! You read the Whole Thing ! 

 

Thank you for dedicating 10 minutes. I tried to reciprocate, or PREciprocate

as you asked us to read a 10 minute article BEFORE we reply .... but I just

couldn't stand the pain for more than about 90 seconds of skimming thru. I 

got painfully bored, maybe like when you read my whole post ? So, thanks

for reading, assuming that you're still here :-)

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I had issues with focus peaking also giving me unsharp results ( the varied from lens to lens since some were tack sharp and on others i just could not focus properly in spite of the focus peaking )

 

Then i discovered the focusing loupe or magnifier ( this allows for fine focus at a specific area of the frame you can also pre-set ) and results are now 99% but it is still not for fast action shots. Practice makes perfect and i can now focus through the loupe pretty fast now using a custom button as the trigger.

 

Then i got the FE24-70 F4 ZA and AF with this thing makes me rage . At a recent birthday taking candid shots, my out of focus results ended up over 50% in spite of seeing the focus peaking highligted. So i am beginning to enjoy my MF lenses with the focus magnifying loupe ( and single focusing zone too !)

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............ ... .. .... .. .. ...

 

Then i discovered the focusing loupe or magnifier ( this allows for fine focus

at a specific area of the frame you can also pre-set ) and results are now 99%

but it is still not for fast action shots. Practice makes perfect and i can now

focus through the loupe pretty fast now using a custom button as the trigger.

 

............ ... .. .... .. .. ...

   

Trewnuf dat: "but it is still not for fast action shots". 

  

However, the ability to place the 10X where you choose leads to a

way to save a coupla moments if shooting well-timed, non-burst,

single frame action shots. Put the 10X focus rectangle in the frame

where the subject's face [or whateverrr ... ] needs to be, then go to

7X or 10X and acquire focus. The moments you save happen now.

You don't hafta recheck your framing before shooting cuz you had

put the 10X rectangle in place to allow you to aim-and-shoot with

no further need to observe your final composition.

    

Obviously, you work with a bit wider FL than your intended finished

picture, so you hafta sacrifice some MP to save a coupla moments.

It's not a huge advantage but if saving a coupla moments pays off,

then what's a few MP between friends ?  

   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------  

  

 A week ago I used this method for 120 frames with better than 90%

reeeally accurate focus. The actions were small and well contained,

shooting a jazz ensemble. The "action problem" was that shooting

wide open, often at 100mm, the DoF is so slim that minor motions of

the players would play havoc with focus. Nailing the shutter while I'm

still in 7X mode, and still follow focusing, got me the shots before the

subject could move out of the focus plane. I used 7X cuz it was good

enuf and 10X woulda made it harder to maintain my semi-correct aim

at the subject. 

  

Several of the musician pix are elsewhere in these forums, right here: 

  

http://www.sonyalphaforum.com/topic/4849-28-105-maxxum/  

  

Check results for yourself :-) 

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https://goo.gl/photos/VtDfsAFuBMugaaQq9

 

With the exception of the two action shots, 100% of the photos in that album were taken with an A6000 and a Minolta 50mm F1.4 MC.  That lens is older than I am!

I was a complete noob then (moreso than I am now), but I very quickly figured out how to get nice sharp pics, even when shooting wide open with an F1.4 lens.

Focus peaking helps a lot, but can sometimes be unreliable.  There's a few out of focus shots that didn't make the album, that I swear were highlighted by the peaking when I pulled the trigger.  So there's certainly some skill and technique to it.  But anyone can learn it in a pretty short amount of time.

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Focus peaking is unreliable!

 

i use only MF lenses because

 

i hate AF, it looks right but most of the time the focus point is slightly on the wrong spot!

 

and it is slow, the camera has to focus for every shot!

 

if the subject is not moving it is not necessary to focus again, just klick,............ NO...... bsss.....bsss..bssss...klick

 

you see directly the impact of the aperture to the picture if you use manual lenses

 

i use sharp lenses like Mamiya C 80mm 2.8 or Voigtländer nokton 50mm 1.5, so it is easy to see the focus point without magnification or Focus peaking

 

i shoot only RAW and use the Portrait modus where i increased contrast +2 and sharpness to +3, to see the focus point better in the EVF

 

if i´m not sure because of difficult light i use magnification

 

it works great and is a joy to use

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............. .. .... .... ... .. .. ... .. ..... .. . ... ..........

  

i hate AF,  ... ..... .... .. ...... . ... .. ........

 

and it is slow, the camera has to focus for every shot!

 

if the subject is not moving it is not necessary to focus again,

just klick,............ NO...... bsss.....bsss..bssss...klick

 

..... .. .... ......... .. .... .... ... .. .. ... .. ..... .....

  

Finding myself reflected in your mirror .... except for the

little bit quoted above. The slightest familiarity with the

Custom Buttons feature will lead you to Back Button AF.

 

For the few times I use AF it's always ALWAYS always

BBAF. It fully answers your complaint above, which I do

agree would be intolerable if left in the default mode. 

  

----------------------------------------------------------------------- 

 

One of my APSC Sonys is the cheapest one, the a3000,

for use in high risk situations where, if necessary, I can

consider it disposable. It CANNOT do BBAF ! Therefore

it's forever assigned to MF, via a cheap adapter and any

legacy lens that is common enuf to be cheaply replaced

[typically an ancient 28/2.8 or 35/2.8 pre-AI Nikkor]. The  

a3000 has one unique and very endearing feature, or to

be accurate, an endearing LACK of a certain feature. It

lacks auto switching between the EVF and rear monitor.

Instead, it has a conveniently placed toggle button :-) I'll

bet dollars to dinars that button would appeal to you too !

AAMOF Sony has, finally, provided it on a not-so-cheap

body. It's on the a7R-II ... but NOT on the basic a7-II :-(

Thanks a heap, Sony.

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hoakin1981,

 

A couple things to point out with respect to the article you refer to and the conclusions / concerns therein: (1) the writer talked about using many different adapters, including cheap ones, and a bad adapters can really influence IQ; (2) the writer also references the use of wide angles, most of which are not the best performers in the borders / corners when adapted on full frame (although they can do very well with the crop sensors); (3) it is an old article based on first gen A7 technology, before image stabilization, which certainly can make a difference. So, it is difficult for me to place any great credence on some of the statements / conclusions in the article.  The reality is that the internet is full of fantastic images taken with legacy glass.  I do agree that focus peaking does not work perfectly under all circumstances, but tapping the focus zoom function button a couples times allows you to focus as precisely as possible.  With just a little practice, you can focus tack sharp pretty quickly and easily with manual focus lenses on the Sony A7 series or the newer A6xxx series.  Checkout Phillip Reeve website at http://phillipreeve.net/blog/photography/  for some great images made on the Sony A7 series with manual focus lenses.  If you have the $$$, the Zeiss Loxia series is the ultimate.  I would not recommend for fast action / sports, but otherwise, ignore the article and go for it!!!  

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I have recently bought an A6000 having decided to build a kit with a FF A7-ish body and and APS-C one (A6000) and only MF lenses, either legacy or new ones. The plan was to use the same lenses for both bodies.

 

I primarily shoot adapted manual primes on my a6000 and love the experience.

 

My original idea also included eventually picking up an A7 series down the road but, I could see myself just getting an a6300 or more realistically another a6000 and more glass.

 

  • Is focus peaking enough to shoot handheld and achieve tack sharp images?
  • How difficult is it?
  • Are there a special technique or specific settings involved?
  • Is the above feasable only with really good and contrasty glass?

 

  • Focus peaking is a tool that helps to approximate the area in focus. It won't be adequate by itself. Coupled with focus magnification, and recomposing it is quite possible to achieve tack sharp images at a variety of focal lengths. (I currently shoot 15 / 40 / 75)
  • It is not difficult but can be frustrating at first.
  • Absolutely, figuring out what they are for you is what will eliminate the frustration mentioned above.
  • I am a firm believer that good glass yields better pictures. I also believe there are infinite definitions for good and better :) I invested in a quality first prime and feel I am better off for it. I am happy that I learned the ropes with a good lens. I could see the IQ potential that existed beyond my abilities and it drove me to get better at doing what I could to unlock that potential.

All of that being said I'd like to add that I find the finesse of shooting full manual quite meditative and am consistently pleased if not blown away by the quality of the images I have gotten over the past few months.

 

One trick that helped me to get my mind around how to use focus peaking etc was using a macro extension tube with my 40mm lens.

 

It may sound a bit silly but having such a small DoF really provided tacit awareness of in focus and out of focus areas and allowed me to pay attention to what I was doing instead of trying to mentally process larger scenes relative to what I was doing. After a couple sessions of doing this (maybe 2-300 frames) I was much better equipped to operate my setup in a normal configuration. I like to repeat this process as part of test driving a new lens as well.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I'm pretty sure this is the proper technique for shooting with MF or legacy glass.

 

Compose your shot and turn your focus ring until your subject is in focus with focus peaking.

Turn on focus magnification move the window to what you want in focus (an eye, maybe) press to magnify and adjust your focus, then shoot.

 

You do not have to zoom the focus back to full frame, you can shoot while zoomed in with the magnifier.

 

Focus peaking will work fine if your lens is stopped down. But I have an F1.1 lens and you can't rely on Focus Peaking to work wide open because of the shallow depth of field.

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