Shoe Flashs & Manual Lenses Not Working

[formermember]

Well, I ran into a bit of a problem with my flash setup, and wasted most of the weekend diagnosing it, but finally came to the following conclusion:

 

The Sony a6000 (v. 3.10) will not correctly operate a shoe mounted flash with a manual lens attached. My setup is a Odin II and Mitros +. I've tested with both the Odin II and Mitros + mounted in the shoe.

 

With a Rokinon 12mm F/2 attached (love that lens), TTL works but the flash output cannot be adjusted by flash group, FEL (all groups), or the on camera flash adjustment. In manual mode the flash will only put out a weak flash, that cannot be adjusted.

 

Oddly enough, the pop-up R2D2 flash works in TTL, with flash exposure compensation also working.

 

And, I did check my Sony 50 mm F/1.8 works perfectly.

 

The whole reason I was first interested in mirrorless cameras was to shoot a bag full of manual primes. This is really really disappointing. (What's the chances we can talk Sony into a software update?)

 

Has anyone found a fix?

 

Thanks!

[formermember]

Can anyone with another hot shoe flash; or Godox, Cactus, or Nissin wireless flash system; try their manual and TTL operation with a manual only lens?

[Guest Jaf-Photo]

I tend to shoot manual flash and fine tune each flash for position and power so I don't really know. It's just quicker and more precise for me.

 

If I can hazard a guess, the camera probably needs to control the aperture for the automatic system to work?

[formermember]

Hi Jaf-Photo, thanks for the reply.

 

Manual off-camera, and hot shoe mounted, flash does not work. Actually it's worse: off-camera, and hot shoe mounted, flash TTL will produce a properly exposed picture, but it cannot be +/- adjusted. Whereas manual mode outputs the same lower power flash that doesn't properly expose the photo.

 

I had the same guess as you, but the built-in flash works properly, including +/- flash exposure compensation set in the camera menu.

 

Weird eh?

[michelb]

It is a known fact that Phottix Odin ( with whatever flash you will put on them) and Mitros DO NOT accommodate TTL or even Manual flash when using unchipped adapted lenses ( This is even from the era of the A-Mount. It was little known because few people were adapting lenses at that time since it was not as easy as with mirrorless cameras)

 

The Phottix system absolutely requires lens info to operate in TTL/HSS/WL/even in manual mode it does not control anything anymore ( it reverts to the last manual level that was used before putting an unchipped lens on the camera and is stuck there)  . This is and always has been a Phottix issue. Don't accuse your camera of the problem.

 

All digital compatible Sony and Minolta flash units do work in both on camera / off-camera with proper cables and in their native optical WL configuration. Never tried the new radio system because it is way too expensive.

 

But then i just got  the new HVL-F45RM which can act as a controller with the new radio system but can't find even the price for the WL remote here in Canada !!!

 

As for a fix, i can tell you i tried all sorts of combinations  like the picture below ( connecting the Odin as a separate unit behind a HVL-F60M that could filter the lack of lens info, on camera and nothing works), and this is a lost cause with adapted lenses unless Phottix changes something that i am afraid they can not change without causing other disturbances ( long lag at shutter like the Sony system seems to have or break compatibility with some older materials that would make long-time users mad.

[formermember]

This wasn't well known to me, and never came up in the many reviews I read before selecting Phottix for my lighting.

 

I can't image why this is such a problem for Phottix--especially since it will correctly expose TTL, without +/- adjustments, but the point is moot, it is what it is. So much for using these lights for my manual and vintage prime collection!

 

Thank you for shedding some light on the problem.

[Username]

Just recently, I checked that all my shoe mount flashes 

work with all my digital cameras [3 brands], including a 

Sony a6000. I use adapted manual focus lenses on all 

my Sonys, and this is certainly not a problem. It seems  

that your camera and lens are not the problem, but that 

you've chosen an overly complex automated flash for a 

type of work most directly handled by rather basic flash. 

[formermember]

Thanks for checking. Which of your shoe mount flashes allow you to shoot 3 groups spread out over some distance?

[Guest Jaf-Photo]

@michelb: Great info, you are the Sony flash master.

 

@OP: I agree that this is an unexpected problem. As adapted manual lenses are very common on E Mount cameras, Phottix should be upfront with this limitation. Might be worth sending them a polite complaint about it.

 

I sometimes use a set of Yongnuo flashes with a radio controller that I inherited from my Canon system. Works fine in manual on a range of cameras, including analogue. At least it's a low cost option when you need a lot of flashes.

[formermember]

For what it's worth, and you probably already knew this @michelb, you can control the Mitros+ in M mode, off camera, by the Odin in either mode. The disadvantage is you have to adjust each flash at the flash, not via the Odin controller. I tested this to confirm. A real pain when the flashes are buried in a softbox... but it's something.

 

@Jaf-Photo, I really wish people would get on the company's back about this! Mirrorless cameras have a distinct advantage with manual lenses and the Phottix incompatibility is a pretty bad omission by the company. I image a minor firmware update would allow for M control via the Odin controller itself--hey, its not like a vintage or modern manual users is going to balk at a manual flash, right? :-)

 

That Yongnuo is looking better every day...

[michelb]

For what it's worth, and you probably already knew this @michelb, you can control the Mitros+ in M mode, off camera, by the Odin in either mode. The disadvantage is you have to adjust each flash at the flash, not via the Odin controller. I tested this to confirm. A real pain when the flashes are buried in a softbox... but it's something.

 

@Jaf-Photo, I really wish people would get on the company's back about this! Mirrorless cameras have a distinct advantage with manual lenses and the Phottix incompatibility is a pretty bad omission by the company. I image a minor firmware update would allow for M control via the Odin controller itself--hey, its not like a vintage or modern manual users is going to balk at a manual flash, right? :-)

 

That Yongnuo is looking better every day...

 

The Odin was designed to be able to control remote units in  what i call a semi-manual mode ( TTL still activated on the remote flashes and the Odin controls the power output  so can set them up from the control unit). You could use their older Strato II Multi system in the same way.

 

Few people will get on Phottix's back since:

1) Most users of the system are pros using mostly native lenses ( you know the kind that cost 3000$ that few amateurs can afford)

2) The system was designed with A-Mount in the first place and there was basically no issue since with A-Mount and the lens backspacing to the sensor prevented most people from adapting unchipped lenses. Those that did normally used chipped adapters that allowed the Super Steady Shot system to operate. ( you could try that if your Rokinon is adapted from another mount)

3) The Odin/Mitros system was designed by reverse engineering so it has its limitations. Unless Sony opened up its firmware to other brands when it comes to flash technology, the only way to take full advantage of the original firmware would be to pay royalties which would increase the price of the system even more. Do companies like Godox or Nissin pay that ? i can't say. And then maybe to get the thing working the way it is, there may not be a way to make it work without the lens info missing with unchipped adapters.

 

Used the way you describe, an iShoot PT-04 system ( at about 12$ a piece for both trigger and remote ) will do the same job.

[michelb]

@michelb: Great info, you are the Sony flash master.

 

@OP: I agree that this is an unexpected problem. As adapted manual lenses are very common on E Mount cameras, Phottix should be upfront with this limitation. Might be worth sending them a polite complaint about it.

 

I sometimes use a set of Yongnuo flashes with a radio controller that I inherited from my Canon system. Works fine in manual on a range of cameras, including analogue. At least it's a low cost option when you need a lot of flashes.

Phottix only publishes what is compatible. E-Mount is kind of new and when they develop, they do it with Sony products only ( body and lens) and that works. 

 

Sony's new WL radio system is only compatible with the latest bodies ( A7MII, A7RII A7SII ) and who knows which APS-C bodies so the 6000 may also be disqualified here. The only user that have heard from has huge issues with trigger lag ( 1 second between release of the shutter and the actual picture ). So even a high priced solution may be imperfect. and even if i know the Sony/Minolta optical system works with adapted lenses, there is no guarantee that these new radio triggers do the same.

 

 

All advertising and even instruction manuals tell you what works. They seldom tell you what does not ( OK, sometimes in fine print at the back of the book !)

[Username]

Thanks for checking. Which of your shoe mount flashes allow you

to shoot 3 groups spread out over some distance?

   

I use ordinary optical slave triggers so the brand of flash 

does not matter. Some of my oldies are "slave only" cuz

they have over 100 volt triggers. For a master I'll use any 

flash that has a safe trigger voltage. Frinstintz my 285 is 

excellent as a master cuz it uses only 8 volts to trigger 

and has a built-in power reduction dial. OTOH, my 283 

has a 130 volt trigger even tho it's almost identical to the 

285 except minus the zoom head, so it's only useful as a

slave. Balancing illumination is by adjustable power level 

of the flash units and acoarst by distance and diffusers.   

    

FWIW, I've had no problems about pre-flash etc. It's just 

"plug-n-play" simple. Seems that on high tech cameras

maybe old lenses need old flashes ... to keep within their 

"comfort zone" ? Old flashes, Old lenses, New cameras. 

Somehow it just works ... with Sony Nex and Alpha, with 

Nikon 610/750, with Canon 5D-II and SL-1 ... all of them. 

    

------------------------------------------------------------------------  

     

Old flash units sell for dirt ... or less. Many dial down to 

1/16 power. which acoarst is not the same level for each 

unit cuz they have differing maximum outputs :-) Some 

oldies, especially Sunpak, can dial waaaay below 1/16.  

   

FYI any flash with a mode marked "MD" is 99% certain 

to operate at 1/16 in that mode. "MD" = "motor drive". 

The motor moved the film at 3 to 6 FPS, so the power 

reduction to 1/16 allowed instant flash recycling without 

overheating the tube during bursts. 

     

----------------------------------------------------------------------  

    

This approach predates digital photography [as do many 

of my flash units ... ] and it used to involve a flash meter 

and a whole lotta Polaroid film. Today, my camera is my 

flash meter AND my Polaroid film. I'm NOT given to fond 

memories or nostalgia about chemical photography even 

tho I'm a master at it. Good riddance to messy toxic stuff. 

I'll ROTFLMFAO at those who bitdch about spending a 

few hundred dollars to refill their printer ink. I used to mix 

hundreds of dollars worth of short-lived chemicals to do 

the same job on expensive short-lived paper, working in 

toadall darkness. 

[Guest Jaf-Photo]

@username: nice perspective. Vintage flashes are often well made with robust operation. I had a gang of Minolta xi flashes which were very good quality. That said, I think manufacturers like Nissin and Yongnuo has made great contributions towards affordable and usable flashes. The built in radio receivers etc are very convenient. For fun I sometimes use Sony's optical TTL system. The pre-flashes are quite bright and loud and sure to surprise any living subject.

 

And the darkroom, well I both hate it and miss it. These days I get quite strongbreaction to some of the chems, so yeah it's good that we don't have to use them. That said, the photochemical process is very exciting and the results are very rewarding.

[Username]

I do NOT miss having to combine darkness, electricity, and 

plumbing with ... hopefully ... decent ventilation, all in a fairly 

dust-free combination. 

   

Chemicals I will miss least ? C41 bleach was nasty but Ciba 

bleach was 10X worse. Generally, bleaches were always the 

worst stuff. And I'm speaking only of personal suffering, not  

even mentioning environmental damage :-(  

 

GOOD RIDDANCE !