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IRIS problem with 85 1.4 and 24-70 2.8 GM lenses


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Hi everybody here. I’m following a suggestion from Mark Galer that personally said to contact Miguel Quiles but Miguel never ansewered so you’re my last hope and probably my best too…

This is a brief summary of my problem:

The megaissue is with the Sony A7rII (but guess it’s applicable to other ILCEs too) and the two new GM lenses (24-70 and 85).
The issue is related to the the iris not opening while focusing with the 85 1.4 and 24-70 2.8GM. Setting Effect ON/OFF toggle has no effect (mine is always on OFF anyway).
Practically speaking, you can’t focus accurately in normal dimly lit studio situations when shooting over f4.
Iris stay closed while focusing and focus accuracy and speed drop.
If you have to shoot at f8 (and in studio that’s the norm, but f5.6 proved impossible too) you can’t really focus at all unless you’ve a lot of ambient too, even manually because the same accuracy drop is in the viewfinder, stopped down you can’t see the exact focus point.
It's a total show stopper. Previously I was using a Metabones/Canon 24/70 and Canon 85 combo with optimal results but I mistakenly thought that the new Sony duo would have been a wonderful choice and actually they are, but only when shooting wide open or almost wide open. Stopped down the focus is simply unusable and even worse prone to errors.

My question is: does anybody here know if Sony is aware of the issue and is going to fix it?
Why they did such a big mistake with the new GM lenses?
I’ve checked online and it's not my problem, everybody working professionally noticed the very same issue.
You can find a detailed description of the issue on diglloyd just to quote one.
He finds that even at f4 accuracy drops below the acceptable range. My results at f4 were slightly better but probably because people moves all the time so there are more chances that they move also towards the focus point.

If I need to shoot at f8 with studio flashes how can I focus this way? I can't realistically open iris and then close before every single click. Does anybody know of any engineer’s email that I can contact about this?
Is there a way to contact a Sony developer directly? You know, writing to support emails is totally useless for such critical but very peculiar issuers…
Thank you for your time. Really.
Hope you’ll have something for me.
Ideally, a forthcoming software update…

Best regards and thanks again.

Maurizio Camagna

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Hello Maurizio, from all I have read this is normal! I believe the reason is when you focus at say 2.8 and then take the shot at say f/8 the focus can shift and Sony felt that if the camera did that the image may be soft so they don't open the aperture to f/2.8 like some of the older Sony lenses.

 

I can't say if I like it this way but Sony knows about it and I think Steve Huff Photo was the first to point this out.

 

I am sure there are others now that are aware of this condition but I have not read a Sony explanation as of yet.

So all we can do is wait and enjoy these lenses until we get more info.

 

When the Sony 90 mm 2.8 first came out and I reported that at f/9 it had a weird issue with the AF in C-AF mode but in S-AF it was better and this was do to the way Sony used Phase AF or Contrast AF.

 

Christopher

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Hi Christopher and thanks for your reply but as everybody knows focus shift is not a deadly issue while the inability to focus closed in dim light is really a VERY big issue!

Ideally, we should have both options and that's should be a setting, not a fixed behavior.

Let's hope that some engineer at Sony finally understands how silly it was.

At the moment, I state that the Sony 24-70 and 85 GM lenses are completely useless in a studio. Paperweights.

 

Maurizio

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HI Maurizio

 

A Professional opinion. I completely agree with you. 

 

This is a big failure of the Sony System. I find it almost impossible to shoot portraits at higher apertures in the studio with my G-Master lenses due to this. Sony's method of physically closing the lens diaphragm down on the lens whist adjusting aperture on the camera actually impedes your ability to focus properly at higher apertures using A7R II bodies, and is completely abnormal compared to DSLR's. I have spoken directly with Sony UK about it and they agreed completely with me that it is a definite issue. To add insult to injury Sigma copied Sony's method of controlling the lens diaphragm on their MC-11 converter. It is even worse because the Sigma lenses open up the Lens diaphragm and close it slowly in increments every time you press to acquire focus. It is crazy. You cannot shoot professionally in the studio because of this. I have now conversed with numerous Pro colleagues and they told me this is why they don't use Sony products.

 

In most studio setups with Heads you would shoot at 1/200(and above for HSS) at f8.0 to f11.0 - the Sony bodies stop using phase detect above f8.0 and use Contrast detect alone which slows AF performance. Every other DSLR uses a different method as they leave the lens diaphragm wide open and only close it to your desired aperture setting on shutter actuation, this enables you to acquire focus quickly as there is always the maximum amount of light passing through the lens. Why Sony have decided to physically close down the lens diaphragm is frankly beyond belief. I understand it can be handy when shooting landscapes as it gives you live DOF preview but it's totally useless for shooting in low light situation at high apertures. I'd rather have a camera that can focus as opposed to seeing a live DOF preview.

 

IMO Sony should change this. I would prefer it if the lens diaphragm control was changed to behave like a normal DSLR. The lens diaphragm should stay wide open whilst acquiring focus and only close to your desired aperture setting on shutter actuation. That would then let the A7R II use phase and contrast detect to focus quickly. As things stand I can't use a Sony body in the studio. It's Hasselblad and Nikon all the way because the Sony's just don't work. It's a great pity because the A7R II is a great little camera otherwise.

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Thanks JGM! You nailed it. I hope this things grows up quickly to force Sony act quickly. At the moment, I'm practically at despair.

 

I can't believe this isn't a more widely publicised issue Maurizio. If Sony changed the lens diaphragm control behaviour to mimic a DSLR then the problem would be solved, As for Sigma... all of their DSLR's use the traditional method. Why on Earth would you change that on the MC-11? Make it control the lens diaphragm like a DSLR - problem solved. Faster focusing, and a faster shooting experience.

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Exact. That's my biggest fear. This issue isn't big enough. But I think to know why… Unfortunately most (and for most I mean 99.999%) Sony users are still amateurs… They don't use flashes and when they use it they still (amateurishly) believe that a wider aperture means a better photo too…

BTW, Sony shouldn't change anything forever, they should simply add a toggle in settings.

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Exact. That's my biggest fear. This issue isn't big enough. But I think to know why… Unfortunately most (and for most I mean 99.999%) Sony users are still amateurs… They don't use flashes and when they use it they still (amateurishly) believe that a wider aperture means a better photo too…

BTW, Sony shouldn't change anything forever, they should simply add a toggle in settings.

 

Yes... if possible, my suggestion was to have a setting in firmware for lens diaphragm control so the user can choose which method to use for particular shooting scenarios. eg: Sony Protocol and DSLR Protocol. I'm quite happy with things as they are for landscape shots, but I'd like to be able to change matters for shooting at high apertures in low light in the studio setting. With regards to Sigma, they would have to provide a firmware update for the MC-11 to let the user choose which method they prefer.

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The old Sony Zeiss lenses are ok, I've the 55 (as you have) and the 16-35 f4 and both are correctly behaving. Both are wonderful lenses too.

The issue is only related to the new GM lenses and (as JGM said above) to the Sigma MC-11 adapter.

Canon lenses with the Metabones adapter are ok too.

But, my default studio lens is the 85, so that's why I'm in big trouble now!

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Maurizio. Both parties have been made aware of this. I spoke to Sony tonight again about it.

 

I was shooting... (or to be more correct) I was trying to shoot portraits of some celebrities with the A7R II and 85GM and had to give up because it just wouldn't focus above f5.6 in the studio. I ended up going back to using the Hasselblad.

 

I made Sigma aware of this particular issue with the MC-11 over 2 months ago - as of today I haven't had the courtesy of a reply from Sigma Japan. Disappointing really. I really rate SIgma's lenses they are excellent and their quality control is exemplary. The MC-11 at the moment does not meet those same high standards. It's a pity as with regards to AF Modes functionally it is the best E Mount option. If they changed the lens diaphragm control sequence then it would be almost perfect. I find it hard to believe they would release a product that is crippled by poor implementation of the lens diaphragm control and not want to resolve it as quickly as possible. 

I will let you know when I get an update from one or the other with regards to it. 

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Maurizio. Both parties have been made aware of this. I spoke to Sony tonight again about it.

 

I was shooting... (or to be more correct) I was trying to shoot portraits of some celebrities with the A7R II and 85GM and had to give up because it just wouldn't focus above f5.6 in the studio. I ended up going back to using the Hasselblad.

 

I made Sigma aware of this particular issue with the MC-11 over 2 months ago - as of today I haven't had the courtesy of a reply from Sigma Japan. Disappointing really. I really rate SIgma's lenses they are excellent and their quality control is exemplary. The MC-11 at the moment does not meet those same high standards. It's a pity as with regards to AF Modes functionally it is the best E Mount option. If they changed the lens diaphragm control sequence then it would be almost perfect. I find it hard to believe they would release a product that is crippled by poor implementation of the lens diaphragm control and not want to resolve it as quickly as possible. 

I will let you know when I get an update from one or the other with regards to it. 

 

I'm eager to buy the about-to-be released 70-200 GM but this issue is giving me pause! I look forward to any additional (hopefully positive) info you can provide.

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Hello Maurizio, from all I have read this is normal! I believe the reason is

when you focus at say 2.8 and then take the shot at say f/8 the focus can

shift and Sony felt that if the camera did that the image may be soft so

they don't open the aperture to f/2.8 like some of the older Sony lenses.

 

....................

  

"Focus can shift" ? ! ? ! ?  

 

  

ATM there are 12 posts in this thread and NO other mention of

focus shift. What support do you have concerning that ? I'm NOT

challenging your sincerity, honesty, veracity, etc. But thus far all

I've seen is your "I believe the reason is ..... ", so I'm just asking 

how or why you came to believe that. I assume there's a reason. 

  

It is perficklee reasonable to program firmware to address lens

flaws such as corner shading or barrel distortion, cuz even many

superb lenses exhibit at least minor degrees of those flaws. But

if Sony is programming wacko iris behavior to mask focus shift,

thaz a verrrry different game. No superb lenses have focus shift. 

    

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++     

  

If GM lenses have focus shift when stopping down, then they are

most definitely not premium lenses, nor are they mediocre lenses,

but are garbage lenses. Focus shift is an absolutely unacceptable

flaw which is NOT an OPTICAL flaw that can be reduced just by

stopping down [quite the contrary]. It is a mechanical flaw due to

sloppy assembly [or a flawed mechanical design "blueprint]. It

means the iris is located at the wrong location along the lens axis.

There are zero acceptable excuses for that :-( 

  

To assume there is focus shift in lenses that are otherwise highly

regarded and widely praised is not a reasonable explanation for

weird firmware programming. Weird programming is usually just

cuz Sony is rather clueless about what users need or prefer. But

focus shift reflects badly on the actual lens maker. It's a flaw that

only garbage lenses, bottom feeder store-brand lenses, sloppily

constructed lenses exhibit. It is commonly associated with lousy

lens coatings, failure to black the edges of elements, erratic iris

action, and a host of other signs of garbage lenses.

      

If Sony confirms that what you assume/suspect is actual fact, then

those who say Sony has no business building cameras are, sadly,  

100% ... maybe 200% ... correct. And I personally will not be really

surprised. I keep my "investment" in Sony gear to a strict minimum.

I use their highly adaptable bodies to get some mileage out of all

my ancient film-era lenses. Nothing more. Any announcement of a

FF live view Nikon body and it's "So long, Sony ... and get a clue !"

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@Maurizio

 

SIgma's CEO informed me today that he agrees Sony's lens diaphragm control method is not ideal. To be fair to Sigma - they obviously followed Sony's guidelines on control protocol. He will speak with his engineers to see if the issue can be overcome. I would suggest that MC-11 users can choose which lens diaphragm control method is selected on firmware update: Sony protocol or DSLR protocol. Personally speaking, DSLR protocol would let you shoot and acquire focus in any conditions so would seem the better all round option. The Commlite E Mount adapter I use on my A7R II bodies controls the lens diaphragm using the same method as a DSLR. If Commlite can implement this then surely Sigma can too.

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@Maurizio

 

I can fully understand your despair - it is very frustrating to spend so much money on a camera and lens combination, only to find out that it is unworkable under standard studio shooting conditions. I am sure Sony will have to act on this quickly as basically, their cameras are crippled due to it. I will let you know as soon as I get any feedback from Sony.

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Maybe, just maybe, there could be a work-around. 

 

I use 4 different Sony bodies, altho none are your model,  

nor your lenses. But I do notice that on some models that  

iris behavior is linked to the choice of mode [PASM]. IIRC  

one of them switches off the auto iris function in A-mode.  

  

Check thru all 4 modes on your camera using GM lenses,

to see if the problem occurs in every mode, or not.

  

Hypothetical example, simply a jump off point for thinking

outside the box to seek a work-around:

 

Suppose you find that the problem goes away in S-mode.

  

Agreed that S-mode is not a seemingly logical choice for

studio flash use. But, you can mimic manual mode while

in S-mode. Set the AEL to "Hold". Set the shutter speed

you prefer. Aim your camera at a light or whatever, so as

to cause the camera to select the f/stop you prefer. Lock

that f/stop in place using the AEL-Hold.

 

I emphasize that the above is an example of what MIGHT

happen. It's just an example of experimenting beyond the

obvious, and not a tested/proven prescription ... not at all.

Good luck.  Experiment madly !

  

`

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Sitting here in pretty much disbelief at this thread, I had no idea this problem even existed, I feel for you Maurizio & you have every right to feel disillusioned and worried, 

 

I also had a couple of 85 GM's but ended up returning them before discovering this issue as I found the focus noise unacceptable, JGM is completely right in saying he can't believe this isn't a more widely publicised issue, I couldn't agree more,

 

Hopefully Sony will waste no time in rectifying this problem or at least addressing the issue & giving some explanation why they implemented this flaw in the first place,

 

Goodluck.

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Actually I've further bad news! I've retested the SonyZeiss 55 1.8 (it's up to date to V2 firmware) and it behaves very badly too!! Actually (always when stopped down, go directly to f16 to immediately see the issue but it appears easily above f4, more or less, it depends from light and contrast) it quickly achieves focus because normally it's open to f1.8 in "rest", but as soon as possible, a split second after pressing the focus button, it begins to "breathe" closing the iris and losing the focus point. You have to be in C-AF to see this immediately. It's totally annoying and horrible. I'm pretty sure that this won't happen before, so it must be a "fantastic new bug" from 3.2 or 3.1 software.

Deeply saddened.

Probably it's the very same issue that plagues the new GM lenses only that it shows itself in a slightly different manner.

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@Maurizio

 

Hmmm... not good at all. Sorry to hear your having further problems with your 55mm. :(

An article... :-))) Ha... Sony kit is always amazing in Rumoursville... their products are perfect, they never have faults Maurizio. Only the sunshine is broadcast, it's never allowed to rain. Don't expect articles based on facts here Maurizio - facts are usually bad news. :-))))

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Thanks JGM! I'm quite impressed by the fact that nobody talks about this as it's obvious that it's hard to focus even in plain good light when stopped down. I still hope that something will come up to help but I can't wait too much really…

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Wow..... Did I really just read a complaint that a $5000 kit didn't properly compete with a Hasselblad rig?  How come my Honda Accord get's stuck every time I try to go off-roading?  

Now I may be wrong, but I haven't seen Sony make a press statement that the A7RII is the greatest camera in history and the only thing you will ever need (haven't seen Canon or Nikon make those claims either).  Is the A7 series a well executed concept?  Yes.  Are the G Master lenses fantastic?  Hell yes (own and shoot with both of the currently released models)!  Is is a great combination for 90% of what I shoot?  Sure.  Have I used it in the studio?  Yes.  Would I chose it over my medium format system?  ....No.  Does that mean that it's a piece of junk that I regret purchasing?  Not at all.  I had to make a fair amount of adjustments to my work flow with moving from Canon to MF, but I got over it.  Same when moving to the Sony.  

.....Just switch over to AF-S when shooting at small f-stops and quit complaining.

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