Sony only markets 4 cameras as having '14bit' color.

[Max the Dog]

A Google site search of Sony's US website shows that only 4 (RX1, A7r, A7 and A99) cameras are marketed with 14bit color.  

 

 

Some A mount users report they have true 14 bit color in the A99 and A77 cameras.  I've never seen a raw digger on those files but if the files aren't at least 1.8 to 2x the mp of the sensor then those files are compressed in at least some fashion. 

 

The A7 and A7r produce compressed files that are only slightly larger than the sensors mp count.  These are cRAW 11+7 bit files and not 14 bit as Sony markets.

 

Any RX1, A99 or A77 users want to post a screenshot of a list of their ARW file sizes ?   

[Golem]

`   

   

Guess nobody givzaschidt about other peep's google

searches. There's only 4xxxx...xxx X 10^100 searches

per second by peeps who :   

 

Don't know how to query

Don't know how to parse results

Don't know they arse from ahole inda ground ..... 

   

Or mebbe you just need a few new user ID's ? cuz ain't

no one here givva ratzarse about clam diggers or craws. 

Mostly they care about results, the tools and techniques

leading to results, and the price of tea in China. 

  

Bad Troll ! No screenshots 4U ! Commback nexweek ! 

  

  

    

`  

[benmao]

Any RX1, A99 or A77 users want to post a screenshot of a list of their ARW file sizes ?

At least the raw of my A6000 is not lossless-14bit, because 24 Megapixel is only 24 Megabytes. I looked into the Sourcecode of DCRaw an saw how the compression works: Yes it is 11 bits plus 7: Two sensor pixel's values are stored with 11 bit (the highest and the lowest) and the 14 other pixels out of 16 are stored as difference between these two with 7 bit.

 

However, you don't really need to store all the Information. It doesn't really matter if the value of one sensor pixel is e.g. 8192 or 8191, is it?

 

In Principle you can store 14 bit in 4 bit, if you accept that the value is only doubled like: 0 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 1024 2048 4096 8192.

 

Using full 14 bit you have all the values 1 2 3 4 5 ... 8190 8191 8192.

 

Using 11 bit you are in between:

1 2 3 4 5 6 ... 8160 8168 8176 8184 8192.

 

So it is 14bit but some Information is thrown away from the big numbers.

 

Real 11 bit would also make bigger steps with the low values if you put it on the same scale:

0 8 16 24 32 ... 8176 8184 8192.

[Golem]

`   

   

Well !!!!!!  

   

THAT is just toadally unacceptable.

  

Reality and pragmatism must NEVER be

allowed to compromise sacred theoretical

mythology. I will now immolate my Sonys  

on the Altar ... but I'll remove the batteries

first, cuz I know the gods would not favor 

any sacrifice accompanied by toxic fumes.

   

`  

[Austerror]

I'm pretty sure my A99 can produce 14bit files.

[Max the Dog]

How big are the files ?

 

I'm pretty sure my A99 can produce 14bit files.

[Max the Dog]

Can you show more ? 

 

Why not show more ?

 

`   

   

Guess nobody givzaschidt about other peep's google

searches. There's only 4xxxx...xxx X 10^100 searches

per second by peeps who :   

 

Don't know how to query

Don't know how to parse results

Don't know they arse from ahole inda ground ..... 

   

Or mebbe you just need a few new user ID's ? cuz ain't

no one here givva ratzarse about clam diggers or craws. 

Mostly they care about results, the tools and techniques

leading to results, and the price of tea in China. 

  

Bad Troll ! No screenshots 4U ! Commback nexweek ! 

  

  

    

`  

[Max the Dog]

If A6000 (24mp) is producing 14 bit uncompressed files they would be about 45-48mb per ARW photo.   

 

24mb files are 11+7 and would have the same banding, posterization and gradient issues as the "OTHER 14 Bit" Sony cameras. 

 

At least the raw of my A6000 is not lossless-14bit, because 24 Megapixel is only 24 Megabytes. I looked into the Sourcecode of DCRaw an saw how the compression works: Yes it is 11 bits plus 7: Two sensor pixel's values are stored with 11 bit (the highest and the lowest) and the 14 other pixels out of 16 are stored as difference between these two with 7 bit.

However, you don't really need to store all the Information. It doesn't really matter if the value of one sensor pixel is e.g. 8192 or 8191, is it?

In Principle you can store 14 bit in 4 bit, if you accept that the value is only doubled like: 0 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 1024 2048 4096 8192.

Using full 14 bit you have all the values 1 2 3 4 5 ... 8190 8191 8192.

Using 11 bit you are in between:
1 2 3 4 5 6 ... 8160 8168 8176 8184 8192.

So it is 14bit but some Information is thrown away from the big numbers.

Real 11 bit would also make bigger steps with the low values if you put it on the same scale:
0 8 16 24 32 ... 8176 8184 8192.

[weinhous]

Some folks are so fixated on file size that they overlook other variables.

 

For one example, there are lossless compression algorithms that can compress to predetermined files sizes. The tradeoff is the computation time it takes to do/undo the lossless compression. The gain is a known image-transmission rate.

 

The engineering is way more complicated than has been assumed by the file-size-fixated.

[Max the Dog]

Sony execs have admitted there is no 14 bit and there is no guarantee of 14 bit and that 11+7 bit is a lossy format. 

 

https://sonyvnikon.wordpress.com/2015/07/22/sony-is-not-serious-about-14-bit-color/

 

Furthermore, Sony is no longer marketing 14 bit color for any of its cameras.

 

https://sonyvnikon.wordpress.com/2015/07/22/sony-no-longer-marketing-mirrorless-as-14-bit-color/

 

 

Some folks are so fixated on file size that they overlook other variables.

 

For one example, there are lossless compression algorithms that can compress to predetermined files sizes. The tradeoff is the computation time it takes to do/undo the lossless compression. The gain is a known image-transmission rate.

 

The engineering is way more complicated than has been assumed by the file-size-fixated.

[whiteheat]

This may sound like comment from an uninitiated backwoodsman, but does any of this matter?  Does it have any really great or otherwise significant impact to output?

[Guest all8]

Furthermore, Sony is no longer marketing 14 bit color for any of its cameras.

 

 

YES THEY ARE!

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[crazyryoga]

If A6000 (24mp) is producing 14 bit uncompressed files they would be about 45-48mb per ARW photo.   

 

24mb files are 11+7 and would have the same banding, posterization and gradient issues as the "OTHER 14 Bit" Sony cameras. 

 

I'm sorry to intrude, but my Nikon D5300 has a 24MPx sensor and produces 24MB raw images. By your logic then Nikon is declaring the false in his site, saying that my D5300 can produce 14bit images..

[Golem]

This may sound like comment from an uninitiated

backwoodsman, but does any of this matter?  Does

it have any really great or otherwise significant

impact to output?

No.

 

None.

 

Nada.

 

But it's not without value.

Entertainment is a gazillion

dollar industry, and altho

Max is a very small slice of

the pie, he is a contributor.

 

You'll come to appreciate

him over time, unless your

taste in entertainment just

doesn't include troll acts.

 

`

[whiteheat]

No.

 

None.

 

Nada.

 

But it's not without value.

Entertainment is a gazillion

dollar industry, and altho

Max is a very small slice of

the pie, he is a contributor.

 

You'll come to appreciate

him over time, unless your

taste in entertainment just

doesn't include troll acts.

 

`

Oh, I see.  So he's reached the stage of not being taken seriously anymore, much like the boy who cries wolf one too many times.

[Snowfun]

He has made a legitimate point. Sony has not implemented 14 bit uncompressed raw on the A series (+/- others).

That's a simple statement of fact. And it's where the usefulness of his posts ends.

Where the entertainment starts is in the constant and unnecessary repetition of the same mantra. As if we don't already know! It's also rather tragic - firstly as a thinly veiled and desperate plea to gain clicks on his site and second because it detracts from the artistic values we are also striving towards.

There is ample evidence (internet search) to suggest that there is no visually detectable difference in most (vast majority?) cases. Extreme post-processing is, however, one example in which one does require as much discreet information in the original file as possible. Exposure correctly in the first place to minimise the need for this! Or use a different tool if you need 14bit (noting that whatever tool you might use will have its own set of "faults").

I think most of us here enjoy taking photographs of the wonderful world around us. It is sad that one individual's life is so shallow that one issue dominates. I am reminded of a chap from Frisco who devoted his life to ensuring that cars were parked on the correct side of the street... how dull and unimaginative! (Possibly just a coincidence however...)

[weinhous]

He has made a legitimate point. Sony has not implemented 14 bit uncompressed raw on the A series (+/- others).

That's a simple statement of fact. And it's where the usefulness of his posts ends.

Where the entertainment starts is in the constant and unnecessary repetition of the same mantra. As if we don't already know! It's also rather tragic - firstly as a thinly veiled and desperate plea to gain clicks on his site and second because it detracts from the artistic values we are also striving towards.

There is ample evidence (internet search) to suggest that there is no visually detectable difference in most (vast majority?) cases. Extreme post-processing is, however, one example in which one does require as much discreet information in the original file as possible. Exposure correctly in the first place to minimise the need for this! Or use a different tool if you need 14bit (noting that whatever tool you might use will have its own set of "faults").

I think most of us here enjoy taking photographs of the wonderful world around us. It is sad that one individual's life is so shallow that one issue dominates. I am reminded of a chap from Frisco who devoted his life to ensuring that cars were parked on the correct side of the street... how dull and unimaginative! (Possibly just a coincidence however...)

 

Exactly right :-)

 

Is also why I long ago used "Manage Ignore Prefs" to literally not have max's stuff displayed when I read these forums. Life is too short to waste time feeding the trolls.

[Guest all8]

You just fed the troll ... And so did I. Except that he is more than a troll as I'm sure some people have found out.

 

Normally moderators take care of this kind of behavior ... SWTF is this still here for?

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[whiteheat]

Max the dog, eh?  One to watch.  It seems the appellation of 'Mad Max' might be more apposite.