A7rII Raw color Issue - Display deep blue instead of purple (but jpg are fine)

[Bertrand]

Hello Community members,

 

I am running into an issue with my RAW files on my A7rII. Here are the details:

 

- Capture One Express (C1) and Lightroom (LR) will read the color incorrectly from my RAW files (it displays a deep blue instead of a purple color)

- While the jpg files are read with the correct colors in both C1 and LR (I shoot RAW + JPG).

- All settings are on defaut in C1 and LR

- It happens with uncompressed raw as well

 

Because I use my camera a lot for our own product shoot, color accuracy is important for us. I also use a grey card to white balance the camera.

 

The problem seems to happen for any product that has some sort of purple/indigo color (it happened with a different dress as well).

 

Because of the purple issue, I am kind of having a harder time to trust my camera, as I am afraid it can do the same for other colors.

 

Can anyone help on identifying if there is something wrong with my setting ?

 

I have uploaded the RAW file, the JPG file from the camera on a Wetransfer link (as they are too big to be attached here), as well as a screenshot that shows the RAW and JPG side by side in Capture One to show the color difference.

 

http://we.tl/qlXkH6D9XG

 

Thanks a lot !

 

Bertrand

 

 

 

[adwb]

Bertrand I get the same result in C1, Lr and ps as you do.

 

it is a quick correct in c1 [see my attached screen shot of c1 pro]  but that's not the point, I would contact C! help and query this? it would infer their baked in color profile is wrong, and if not let's see what they suggest.

 

I say contact C1 as their support is very good unlike adobe

 

regards Alistair

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[Bertrand]

Hi Alistair !

 

Thanks a lot for the quick reply and suggestion

 

I contacted C1 support and had a discussion with them. Their answer is as follow:

 

Yes I just tested here. The issue may be related to certain materials or a profiling error on our end. I am adding the information to R&D but unfortunately do not have a solution as to why purple and blue are being read incorrectly.

 

 

The full discussion below, but the support person seemed to be confused at times:

 

 

Hi Team, I'm using an a7rii and shoot compressed RAW+jpg (since capture one does not support uncompressed). The jpg from the camera shows accurate color. However the RAW file as read and exported y capture one shows inaccurate color. I have attached comparison screenshot. All setting from capture one are on default. I also used a grey card to get accurate white balance. Capture one will correctly read the color from the jpg file. Any idea what to do to fix this ? Thanks,

 

Bertrand

 

Hello, What ICC profile and Film Curve is chosen under base characteristics in the color tool. I can not see this setting from your screenshot. Also, your jpeg is compressed and you are showing me the difference in two different softwares. Preview is not accurate. It just shows you the thumbnail jpg of your raw file. Send me your jpeg and raw.

 

Thank you,

 

Phase ONe Support

 

Hello Team, Thanks for the reply. The ICC profile used is SONY A7RM2 Generic and the curve used is 'Auto'. The color differences shown are the same within Capture One (the color of the dress is pretty much the same in the jpg preview or in C1). Besides I have the dress in real life, and the jpg does show the accurate color (we have an online shop - so color accuracy is very important to us). Please find attached the different files used: The RAW file The JPG file 2 screenshots showing how it is displayed in Capture one (different colors). It may not help the case a lot, but my screen is color calibrated. Thanks, B.

 

Ok so jpegs from in camera are compressed and colors may be innaccurate. Are you saying the raws are correctly displayed in CO? This is how this should work. I am still at a loss as to what is the right color.

 

Hello, As per my first message "The jpg from the camera shows accurate color. However the RAW file as read and exported y capture one shows inaccurate color. I have attached comparison screenshot. All setting from capture one are on default. I also used a grey card to get accurate white balance. Capture one will correctly read the color from the jpg file" It is the opposite: CO correctly reads the color from the JPG file (so does Windows preview), but the way CO reads the color from the RAW is completely inaccurate. Ideally I would like to have CO properly convert the RAW to JPG, but right now it does not, because CO reads color completely wrong from the RAW and will export with the same color inacuracy to JPG. So in the end the in-camera JPG is color accurate, but not the JPG as converted by CO. You can refer to my previous attached files to get an idea (I also included a RAW and same in-camera JPG).

 

Ok I understand now. Thank you. Can  you go to your output recipes and check the output color profile? Maybe set to Adobe RGB on output? This may affect what you see as thumbnails.

 

Hello, thanks for the feedback. It doesn't solve the issue. I tried with the camera embedded profile for the output (which is Adobe RGB), I also tried different other Adobe RGB. I would also add that many photographers nowadays don't really work with Adobe RGB because many online 'app' (Chrome, Facebook, Instagram, Whats'app etc.) don't read this space (they all read sRGB). But nonetheless changing the output recipe doesn't work. I would also add that my monitor can read Adobe RGB color space. You asked me earlier for the RAW and JPG file, did you get to try them to see ? Thanks

 

Yes I just tested here. The issue may be related to certain materials or a profiling error on our end. I am adding the information to R&D but unfortunately do not have a solution as to why purple and blue are being read incorrectly.

 

 

 

But then I wonder, if all software (Lr, C1, PS) read it that way, could it be an issue from Sony's RAW ? (My knowledge on photography technology is not very deep - I'm just trying to guess)

 

I didn't find an obvious contact for Sony support that specifically deals with photography/camera, so I couldn't ask. But if it is the case, that would lead me to two observations:

 

- That means I can't really rely on my camera if I have something interesting to shoot that has purple color (it will show deep blue). And this is even truer for my product shoot.

- Or I have to always shoot in RAW + JPG to compare the RAW with the JPG since the JPG seems to always show accurate colors. It will add extra work to always make sure my raw is accurate. If I only work in JPG, it defeats the purpose to have such an expensive camera

 

If the issue comes from C1 and Adobe, then I guess I need to somehow make them be aware of that and wait for an update of their software ? Or if it is Sony's issue - wait for a firmware update ? (but then I wouldn't know how to reach them out or even make them aware enough so that they can work on a firmware update.

 

What do you all think about this issue ? Software update or firmware update to fix it ?

 

Thanks again

 

B.

[Guest Peter Kelly]

This is definitely a colour profile issue and can most easily be seen if you flick between them in LR.

The 'Adobe Standard' gives a definite blue, whereas 'Camera Standard' is a lot more purple.

 

I tend to use the latter most of the time myself as I think the Adobe Standard version is off in various places relating to Sony cameras.

The bottom line is that you are better looking online for other custom profiles, or create your own (bit of a pain, but long term gains!).

[PEDROJOTA]

Hi, I just did a test opening them in FASTSTONE and they look the exactly the same. This program opens Raw and jpg files. that means is not a Sony issue. I even export them as jpj.

[adwb]

This is definitely a colour profile issue and can most easily be seen if you flick between them in LR.

The 'Adobe Standard' gives a definite blue, whereas 'Camera Standard' is a lot more purple.

 

I tend to use the latter most of the time myself as I think the Adobe Standard version is off in various places relating to Sony cameras.

The bottom line is that you are better looking online for other custom profiles, or create your own (bit of a pain, but long term gains!).

yes Peter I agree it looks alike a profile issue but given this happens in different software how does that happen? C1 say they create their own profiles so if the one supplied by sony was faulty in LR or PS [which it is] it should be correct in C1 with their own one?

I have in the past had a similar odd result with various Pentax bodies with blue bell flowers that are realy more purple than blue, they always came out better in a jpeg from the camera than the raw even if i used a colour checker profile created from the site where the images were taken. And with any camera purple gels always look odd i think its a sensor issue of some sort.

 

Is there a way to import a colorchecker profile created for a Sony  into C1 anyway?

[weinhous]

Have a vague recollection of someone (Digital Lloyd?) writing about the cover of the sony sensors cutting off some of the purples of the visible light spectrum. Will try to find the link…

[adwb]

I have just created a colour passport profile for studio flash for my a7r2 to add to lightroom, tomorrow I will then try that profile on the Sony raw image you supplied and see if that makes a difference ?

 

As far as c1 goes the best I can find to make your own profile for a camera is here

[adwb]

ok I have tried the colour profile created using colour passport and in LR or PS rwa adjustment to that profile does nothing to change the blue toward purple. 

looks like you will have to create a user icc profile in c1 to get this right i'm afraid untill some one wiser than me  or Sony come up with a answer. 

[Bertrand]

Thanks Peter and Pedro !

 

@ Peter, I'm a beginner (though trying to learn as much as I can), so I only downloaded Lr to check if it could be an issue solely with C1 (I'm more familiar with C1 and PS), but I'll have a look at what you said about the color profile. Regarding the Adobe space it is only as an output (when converting to JPG), but usually I choose sRGB so it can be read by most online appications.

 

@ Pedro, thanks again ! I'm downloading the soft and will have a look at it, but this could be life saving until there is a 'fix' for C1 and/or Lr  

 

@Alistair, thanks for the help again, I'm going to try to borrow a Canon 6D to see if I run in the same problem (I used to have a 6D a while back but sold it a while back). That camera was super reliable actually (for the very limited things it could do).

 

I'm still kind of on the fence with this camera. I used to have a 6D and it did the critical things I needed it to do for work, but on the other end, there are so many situations where I have a big smile when I'm using some of this camera features (EVF with settings effect on, tilted screen, silent shutter etc.), but usually those are more in a hobby setting (or sometimes outdoor shoot for work it can also be useful - but we do more indoor shoot for work).

 

Is there a way to make Sony aware of that and have them push their software partner or Lr to fix/add this profiling issue ?

 

Thanks all for the great help, if anyone else has an idea on how to fix this issue in C1 (or Lr), I'm still open for suggestion xD

[Bertrand]

Actually I just tried FASTSTONE and I wonder if the fact that it displays colors correctly isn't because it is actually pulling the embedded preview jpg in the RAW file (if that is a thing and/or makes sense). The previews from C1 and Lr show the right colors (the flickering mentioned), and I read it is because it reads a JPG preview. I tried to convert to JPG as a test with FASTSTONE, but it sized down the resolution a lot. So, still a problem

 

Thanks,

 

B.

[seb]

I made an ICC profile for my A7RII in C1 with the x-rite colorchecker passport the other day. I'm using that profile instead of the original one. I checked your arw vs jpg and it looks better with my profile. Here are the settings I was using to generate the ICC-profile:

 

Base Characteristics:

ICC-Profile: Sony A7RM2 AGeneric

Curve: Auto

 

Then go to the color editor:

Magenta H-3.1 / S13.5 / V-2.5

Blue: H6.7 / S0.0 / V-4.7

Cyan: H3.6 / S0.0 / V4.5

Green: H5.4 / S0.0 / V6.6

Yellow: H0.0 / S-5.4 / V1.1

Red: H-3.1 / S4.5 / V1.7

 

Go to the three points of the color editor --> save as ICC-profile

 

Reload C1

 

Use the new ICC-profile instead of "Sony A7RM2 Generic" with your picture arw file. If you were setting the color editor values on the same picture, you have to reset the color editor, of course.

 

Actually, as you can see, it is really simple to make your own ICC-profile in C1. If my preloads are still too blue? change the values above and save it again as ICC-profile. On the other hand it isn't that simple, because you need reference colors under norm-light, a working place that is color managed and a good feeling for colors to make the fine adjustments.

 

If you are pleased with the result, you can use the new ICC-profile on every new pic that is imported. Just set "save as defaults for A7RM2" on the three points under base characteristics.

[adwb]

Ok I shot raw ..+ today using my RII and Sony kit lens, using purple back ground paper and deep purple throw covers for a chair,

Both the image types came out the same in all the software we have been discussing and are correct.

 

Bertrand, can you give some more info on what lighting you used, full camera settings and so on let's see if we can identify what on earth is going on, I just have feeling if there was a issue with purple it would show in both the AWR and the JPEG images, which certainly was the case when I had problems previously with the hue of blue bell flowers and Pentax DNG and JPEG.

 

I also think that if this was a camera or Sony fault by now we would have heard all about it on the forums ?

[seb]

I went through my pics yesterday and compared my calibrated ICC vs. the generic one. I can copy the issue with purple that looks too blue (in indirect daylight).

 

This is NOT a problem of sony or the A7RII. The ICC profile is a convention to read out data and show it on a different media. You will never have a perfect file for that. One of the reason are the different color rooms on each medium.

And actually I can't offend phase one for the "Sony A7RM2 generic" profile either. They do an amazing programm for hundreds of cameras with the same amount of lenses. And you can use them under any different lightconditions... They can't check anything for any combination. I mean, I have an Canon Pixma Pro 1 at home and a NEC PA272W. Both are proud for there color accuracy. They work very well when I'm using the manufacture calibration. But If I want to have perfection, I still have to calibrate them and generate my own ICC profiles. Why should it be different with my favorite software?

 

The good thing about software is, you can calibrate on the fly. You are doing that with white balance and color editing. But after two or three weeks having issues with too much yellow, a green that is too cyan and a blue that is missing violett (and all that on any picture), I made my own profile. This profile is still a convention, but it fits better into my workflow.

 

back to topic: Blue and Purple are the two colors, that are most affected from the difference between sRGB and AdobeRGB. If you want a perfect output, look after the worst color room in your workflow. This is either your display (laptop displays manages around 70-80% of sRGB) or the internet (most browsers only work with sRGB). So, if you are shooting for web-content use sRGB from the scratch. Otherwise you will be disapointed after you processed the picture with adobeRGB/16bit and save it to a JPG with sRGB/8bit. If there is any color room differences somewhere and different profiles, expect differences in colors. To avoid that: find the lowest common denominator in your workflow (if you are shooting for the web: sRGB) and calibrate after that.

[seb]

I rechecked my ICC today and updated it slightly:

Magenta H1.1 / S5.4 / V-1.5

Blue: H8.8 / S2.7 / V-4.7

Cyan: H3.1 / S18.0 / V-4.9

Green: H0.4 / S0.0 / V6.6

Yellow: H-0.4 / S0.0 / V3.7

Red: H-2.2 / S4.5 / V1.7

 

As I turned the green back to green and the blue more to magenta the cyan needed a push in saturation. The difference is not much. The skintones stays more or less the same, but the sky comes more realistic now. I hope I could help you with that.

[seb]

 

[bbphoto]

I find colors to be very peculiar on my a7rii. Sometimes accurate and often a bit wonky. I easily get the cartoonish, plastic look after a little manipulating in LR. All the presets that provided great results on my Nikon give me exaggerated and unrealistic looks on the A7rii. Even the A6000 remained more accurate. I'm trying Adobe profile now so will see if any difference can be seen! 

[tarkane]

I find colors to be very peculiar on my a7rii. Sometimes accurate and often a bit wonky. I easily get the cartoonish, plastic look after a little manipulating in LR. All the presets that provided great results on my Nikon give me exaggerated and unrealistic looks on the A7rii. Even the A6000 remained more accurate. I'm trying Adobe profile now so will see if any difference can be seen! 

 

Might be something to do with https://photographylife.com/adobes-poor-handling-of-raw-files , maybe ? 

[seb]

Found this program that makes an automated profiling with the x-rite colorchecker passport but in C1. It works just the same way as the x-rite plugin in LR. The results look very good to me and comparable to the x-rite-made DNGs in LR.

[adwb]

I’m sorry but i don’t understand where or with what I create a recipe

Seb any Ideas?
Create a recipe with the following parameters:
Name: camprof
Format: TIFF 16bit
Options: Uncompressed
ICC Profile: Embed camera profile
Open with: Set it to camprofgui.exe in C:\Program Files\camprof\camprofGUI
Root folder: Image Folder
Sub Name: _C1
Disable sharpening (checked)
Leave everything else as default.

[seb]

It's the export function (gear-wheel). on top you can create your own defaults. Start with selecting the "Tiff 8-bit", and then, as he describes.

 

I'm trying dcamprof now. It's a more complex profiling. It looks very promising. I'll update my findings, when I'm through:

http://www.ludd.ltu.se/~torger/photography/camera-profiling.html#the_easy_way_c1

 

Here is a link for the program (including an already made A7RII profile (I didn't tested it)): https://app.box.com/DCamProf

I made my own yesterday (thanks to a helping hand) and it looks great. But it needs some more tests before I can make a conclusion.

[dclark2171]

I have been using these in Lightroom until I get time to make my own profiles. http://www.colorfidelity.com/

 

Really nice

[adwb]

It's the export function (gear-wheel). on top you can create your own defaults. Start with selecting the "Tiff 8-bit", and then, as he describes.

 

Here is a link for the program (including an already made A7RII profile (I didn't tested it)): https://app.box.com/DCamProf

I made my own yesterday (thanks to a helping hand) and it looks great. But it needs some more tests before I can make a conclusion.

 

 

with mine it draws the red box the I get a popup message that says   "can't parse with the exe file "  

 

i have updated  the two files suggested on the website but that did nothing either.

[seb]

 

with mine it draws the red box the I get a popup message that says   "can't parse with the exe file "  

 

i have updated  the two files suggested on the website but that did nothing either.

 

did you set the "open with" correctly? It may be different on your computer. You have to set it to the "camprofGUI" file that you had installed.

[bbphoto]

I find that my a7rii raw files have odd coloration in lightroom too. often times shadows come out very blue and warming the photo up will result in super warm areas that aren't shadows/blacks. i have to cut blue color out almost entirely at times. there are also many instances of purple and reds coming out in extreme amounts. I just downloaded and tried using raw digger and the resulting TIFF was so far different from the adobe file it's crazy. Way darker and warmer. I actually prefer abobe without a question. 

 

Not sure what to do at this point. May try CaptureOne..