A7III the future Leica SL competitor

[wickitom]

Title might be wrong but now that Leica gave us the SL, the A7II needs a upgrade, which probably will come by end of next year.

What does the A7III need?

 

Some of the obvious things:

• Internal 4k and with S35 mode
• Full sensor readout for video
• Phase detection like the A7RII
• Optical Variable Low Pass Filter from RX1II
• Same type of sensor technology like in the RX100IV, with memory on the sensor to allow 1080P at 240fps, and 4k at 60p and the 4:2:2 10 bit recording

The new stuff:

• Dual card slots
• Bigger battery
• USB Type C, for transfer and charging
• 60p recording at 4k (more likely on the A7SIII)
• 4:2:2 10 bit internal (more likely on the A7SIII)

Anything else I missed. Yes, I know the last two of the new stuff is a stretch but the obvious list, Sony has the tech and using it already.

[VANGSTR]

At $7450, the A7RII is the obvious choice.

[delewin]

Hi wickitom,

 

What you have just described is the soon to be released A99 mk 2.

 

It has moved from SLT to mirrorless

 

David

[jaclarkaus]

At $7450, the A7RII is the obvious choice.

 

You forgot to add a lens 

[Snowfun]

The reference to the Leica is slightly misleading I think. For that money you'd be thinking about a FS5.

The real competition (to the A7 lineup) will come in the much cheaper Panasonic version of the Leica (the G5? I forget where Panny are with models these days!)

But it is great to see continued advances in cheap/consumer cameras and the SL will drive this forward in future Sony models.

Good times indeed!

[Guest all8]

It would be nice if Sony put a bit more effort into the Firmware; the Menu structure and power consumption come to mind. But, perhaps they already plan a new Touch based interface and would bring all those changes together? Actually I have the feeling that Sony only really ever half finishes anything before moving onto the next what-ever, I see it in the Menu (a Most Recent Used list would help), the Buttons (only some features can be assigned to buttons), the Programing Interface where key functionally is missing (which prevents any useful application development) .. and so on goes the list.

 

So long that there is no competitor I don't expect anything other than the next generation Sensor and more dots in the EVF.

 

The SL is likely intended for existing Leica owners - particularly M owners who have money but would otherwise not buy the next M camera since they are happy with the one they have. I think Leica created this "Pro" camera just for them ...

[daemorhedron]

Forgot the most important thing: touchscreen! =P This is so handy for picking focus point it's not funny.

[Mode101]

Leica pretty much copied the design of A7's, don't you think?

Mirrorless is definitely the future!

[delewin]

I certainly agree with daemorhedron.

Sony really needs to introduce a touch screen on all their cameras.

 

This single change will significantly overcome most of the complaints regarding the confusing / disjointed menu arrangement.

 

Mirror-less is definitely the future as the space saved allows adaptors for virtually all lenses to mount onto the mirror-less body. This is a BIG selling point for people to move platforms whist retaining their investment in their favourite lenses.

[joshinthecity]

I don't feel the need for a touch screen personally

Fix the menu

Give me decent battery life

 

That's all I really need.

 

j.

[Guest all8]

I certainly agree with daemorhedron.

Sony really needs to introduce a touch screen on all their cameras.

 

This single change will significantly overcome most of the complaints regarding the confusing / disjointed menu arrangement.

... all a touch screen will make is a confusing and disjointed menu arrangement with a touch interface.

 

 

One day, perhaps a camera maker will wonder ...

 

... do we really need 3 different JPEG sizes, is one not more than sufficient?

... is a switch necessary for turning IBIS OFF/ON when the IBIS sensor can surely detect when a tripod is being used (since there is no movement).

... is there actually a difference between Wide and Zone AF, can Wide be removed.

... is there actually a difference between Center Spot and Flexible Spot, can Center Spot be removed.

... does it make sense to arrange the menus according to Function or User, for instance the menu for RAW shooter is much different from a Video Shooter or someone using an Adapter - and again the camera can probably do this automatically as well.

 

The only thing a touch interface will do is create a new menu item to disable the touch interface  

[FDP]

I'm not really sure what the point of this post is. The new Leica is already massively inferior to the A7RII for 2x the price. It is strictly for the Leica market: doctors, dentists and photojournalists - people who think things with "Leica" stamped on them are somehow better. In a mirrorless world with lens adapters aplenty it's all really about the sensor and whether or not the camera ergonomics work for a given user-case. 

[Aonko]

Agreed, the new Leica is pretty limited for the price you are paying. But then people throw away money all the time. I would rather spend all that extra cash on some nice Otus lenses or something.

[K2Kevin]

I have no issues with the menus, I know a lot of people complain about it, it's never been an issue for me.  but it would be nice, like the Fn menu, to be able to have a "Shortcut Menu" where you can basically copy certain menu items to that list and organize to your personal preferences. 

 

Also, along the same lines as above... since the A7x is so customizable, it would be great if I could save all my settings (Button assignments and menu settings) to my memory card.  If I get a new camera or use another A7x, I would be able to load my custom settings (temporarily or you can make the changes perminant). 

 

Also, battery life does stink, but its easy to have an extra battery or two, so again, not a big issue for me.

 

Touch screen is the one thing missing that I have used on other cameras and do in fact miss.  Touch to set focus point is amazing in video, but also great for stills.

[Snowfun]

The new Leica is already massively inferior to the A7RII.

Could you possibly explain how the video performance of the new Leica is "massively inferior"?

[Aonko]

He didn't state specifically video performance, though it is hilarious that there is no full frame mode.

 

Disadvantages

1. Lower ISO performance (first reports are showing that at ISO 800 performance is similar to ISO 3200 on A7S/II) link here.

2. No FF mode available during video

3. Softer video

 

Advantages

1. 10-bit video output

2. Nice EVF

3. Low rolling shutter

4. 4096x2160 video recording, even if it is just 24fps.

[FDP]

@Snowfun, not specific to video, but here are some key points:

• The Leica is almost one half the resolution of the A7RII (same sensor as the Leica Q). People can argue about the importance of megapixels, but Leica is two generations behind in the Sony/Canon led resolution war.
• Almost certainly not BSI, this is a real generational advantage of the A7RII over everything else (better lowlight performance, more pixels). This means that even with more resolution the Sony is still probably a better low-light performer.
• I don't think that the Leica does internal video recording. There is a reason why even the F55 and Alexa do internal recording - professional clients like it and when your recorder goes down in the field it is nice to have an alternative to throwing your hands up and declaring the day wasted.
• The Leica EVF might be marginally better than the Sony, but this is an absurd place to try to compete. The A7RII EVF is fantastic, better than fantastic is great, but given that many of us have shot without any reflex viewfinder in the past (film mirrorless) an improved image sensor would have been a much better place for Leica to put their energy.
• Body size. The Leica is quite a bit larger than the Sony. If Leica people (you know who you are) are going to be so rabid about how small and compact and quiet Leica bodies have always been then I would expect some concession that Leica was simply unable to engineer a smaller camera in this case.
• The articulating screen on the Alpha series is serious awesome to use in the field. It does not look the SL has an articulating screen. 

[Snowfun]

All good points.

The Leica does 10bit 422 4K over hdmi... that doesn't say "massively inferior". Considerably better for some purposes than our 8bit.

I'd agree that the A7 stable (A7S + Shogun + v-loks do it for me) have certain advantages. But the Leica has different ones (and when the G5 is released I suspect that will leap ahead because of the price).

What I object to is to dismiss everything about the Leica in one sweeping generalisation! Especially (supra) when it is demonstrably false.

Tim

[K2Kevin]

There's a lot of great coming out of Sony these days and I'm very excited about my Sony camera. I don't think anything out there (even your smartphone camera) is massively inferior. They all serve a purpose. At the same time, I say the same thing about gear I personally own, but never about gear I don't own. That my right

 

When I got my Sony A7II, I certainly felt my Nikon was massively inferior, even though it's not, and sold everything that had a Nikon label attached.

[tamas970]

Title might be wrong but now that Leica gave us the SL, the A7II needs a upgrade, which probably will come by end of next year.

What does the A7III need?

 

Some of the obvious things:

• Internal 4k and with S35 mode
• Full sensor readout for video
• Phase detection like the A7RII
• Optical Variable Low Pass Filter from RX1II
• Same type of sensor technology like in the RX100IV, with memory on the sensor to allow 1080P at 240fps, and 4k at 60p and the 4:2:2 10 bit recording

The new stuff:

• Dual card slots
• Bigger battery
• USB Type C, for transfer and charging
• 60p recording at 4k (more likely on the A7SIII)
• 4:2:2 10 bit internal (more likely on the A7SIII)

Anything else I missed. Yes, I know the last two of the new stuff is a stretch but the obvious list, Sony has the tech and using it already.

 

Full-sensor readout in FF mode would be great, 4k60p, as well. Internal 422/10bit i see unrealistic in the next 2 years, HDMI with a provided AFFORDABLE

SSD-recorder would be fine for me.

 

All-in-all, the a7rII is a fine contender, it represents the top of the available sensor & cpu tech, I doubt Sony could significantly improve the camera within 6 months

(=adding 4k60p without frying the board). h265 would be a significant leap forward, since it is much more efficient packing 4k data and AFAIK is much less processor intensive.

[FDP]

I didn't mean to dismiss everything about the Leica. They have their place. What I objected to was the idea that Sony has to scramble to compete with the SL, if anything I think that Leica has a hard sell on their hands and should have done a better job to make this camera appealing over the A7RII, which is half the cost!

 

Everything is a balance, and I believe that the SL is terrible value for money (at their price point I would kick mirrorless and pick up a Pentax 645Z). The 10bit output is a big deal though, IMO Sony has purposely crippled the mirrorless A mount bodies to help push professional cinema users to their CineAlta line. I am all for people giving Sony a hard time about lack of 10bit!

 

To pre-empt complaints from people who might say that Sony couldn't put a powerful enough processor to handle 10bit inside the A7RII body, Sony could easily have an ASIC solution that could just pipe out 10bit over HDMI from their image buffer. They might not have this design ready to go off-the-shelf, but it is not much harder to output 10bit over 8bit, this is a choice. 

[RRRoger]

"... all a touch screen will make is a confusing and disjointed menu arrangement with a touch interface.

The only thing a touch interface will do is create a new menu item to disable the touch interface "  <<<<

 

You are probably right about Sony messing it up, but...

 

You obviously have never used a camera with fast/accurate touch focus like the GH4.

It is much better than any A7 including the A7s that I only use (with the necessary external recorder) because of low light Video.